mickoo
Western Thunderer
Richard, not forgotten this so will have a dig through my notes and photos tonight and work something out.
MD
MD
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Richard, digging around I can't find a definitive photo that shows exactly which frames #46 were rebuilt with, however if I had to pick one it'd be the pre 1933 style.
The rear end never changed, it was an oval hole so the only choice is the front end and that's difficult to nail down without a photo.
Rather than replicate RCTS verbatim I've picked the salient points and done a couple of renders.
Most if not all A3s have their frames repaired, certainly all A1s did. The rear end in grey remained, rear ends vary from oval hole, round hole or no hole. Generally speaking no hole engines didn't suffer as bad if at all.
The new frames are in red, these were built and held as spares including the middle cylinder block and other stays, when an engine came in they simply cut the front end off and butt welded the new one on (you can still just see the butt weld on Flying Scotsman if you look closely). To strengthen the joint a doubler plate was added (green). The doubler plate was also added to all other engines irrespective of frame design, even if built new, as an insurance against future problems and to keep the future stock of cruciform stays to one width.
By the 1930's the situation was very bad, most of the engines were patched and re-patched and the standard new front frame section was solid except for one round hole at the rear, the doubler plate had a corresponding round hole.
From 1933 new engines and by suggestion newly repaired front ends had one small hole up front ahead of the cylinders, it's quite easy to spot in the right lighting.
Where it gets tricky is that RCTS notes all A1 and most A3 had new frames by 1937, the A1 (60046 was an A1) would of been done first as they are the oldest and with four oval holes the weakest. In 1933 when the design changed there would of been a surplus stock of old style front ends, RCTS eludes several were kept in stock ahead of engines coming in almost monthly for repairs, so the change to the new style might not have come into effect until 1934 or even later.
Suffice to say, if an engine has a small hole up front then it's post 1933, if not, it's pre 1933. The above is a generalisation on oval hole engines, round hole or no hole may differ.
Robs picture is good as it shows a very early A1 (one of the first batch) with clearly a pre 1933 frame repair, Yeadons has a lovely photo of Coronach, a later A3 oval hole engine built in 1928 yet clearly a pre 1933 frame repair, the photo is date 1944 so the repairs seem to have lasted.
One final fly in the ointment, RCTS notes frames were still being swapped out in the early 60's, (60100, 60112 - 1962) 60112 was one of the very first engines to be built and it's hard to believe it went all that time before new frames were required when virtually all of it's brothers built at that time failed in the early 30's. It probably had two sets of repaired frames in it's lifetime.
Anyway, after all that spuffle, I've no indication Diamond Jubilee had a small hole up front so I'd say you need the pre 1933 set up.
Outside view of A3 frames.
Inside view of A3 frames.
The patch is full height and fits between the horn guides with a small gap twixt the two.
Incidentally the A4 which follows pretty much the same design layout got a heads up from these woes, the Achilles heel on the A3 was the frame above the front horn gap, it's not depressed like that on the real engine, that's a modelling thing to follow the footplate, these renders being lifted directly off the Finney7 etch drawings. On the A4 they welded a massive plate across the whole area and they never....or I've never read.....suffered from frame issues, thus the rear end did not need the doubler plate.
MD
The rear end never changed, it was an oval hole so the only choice is the front end and that's difficult to nail down without a photo.
Rather than replicate RCTS verbatim I've picked the salient points and done a couple of renders.
Most if not all A3s have their frames repaired, certainly all A1s did. The rear end in grey remained, rear ends vary from oval hole, round hole or no hole. Generally speaking no hole engines didn't suffer as bad if at all.
The new frames are in red, these were built and held as spares including the middle cylinder block and other stays, when an engine came in they simply cut the front end off and butt welded the new one on (you can still just see the butt weld on Flying Scotsman if you look closely). To strengthen the joint a doubler plate was added (green). The doubler plate was also added to all other engines irrespective of frame design, even if built new, as an insurance against future problems and to keep the future stock of cruciform stays to one width.
By the 1930's the situation was very bad, most of the engines were patched and re-patched and the standard new front frame section was solid except for one round hole at the rear, the doubler plate had a corresponding round hole.
From 1933 new engines and by suggestion newly repaired front ends had one small hole up front ahead of the cylinders, it's quite easy to spot in the right lighting.
Where it gets tricky is that RCTS notes all A1 and most A3 had new frames by 1937, the A1 (60046 was an A1) would of been done first as they are the oldest and with four oval holes the weakest. In 1933 when the design changed there would of been a surplus stock of old style front ends, RCTS eludes several were kept in stock ahead of engines coming in almost monthly for repairs, so the change to the new style might not have come into effect until 1934 or even later.
Suffice to say, if an engine has a small hole up front then it's post 1933, if not, it's pre 1933. The above is a generalisation on oval hole engines, round hole or no hole may differ.
Robs picture is good as it shows a very early A1 (one of the first batch) with clearly a pre 1933 frame repair, Yeadons has a lovely photo of Coronach, a later A3 oval hole engine built in 1928 yet clearly a pre 1933 frame repair, the photo is date 1944 so the repairs seem to have lasted.
One final fly in the ointment, RCTS notes frames were still being swapped out in the early 60's, (60100, 60112 - 1962) 60112 was one of the very first engines to be built and it's hard to believe it went all that time before new frames were required when virtually all of it's brothers built at that time failed in the early 30's. It probably had two sets of repaired frames in it's lifetime.
Anyway, after all that spuffle, I've no indication Diamond Jubilee had a small hole up front so I'd say you need the pre 1933 set up.
Outside view of A3 frames.
Inside view of A3 frames.
The patch is full height and fits between the horn guides with a small gap twixt the two.
Incidentally the A4 which follows pretty much the same design layout got a heads up from these woes, the Achilles heel on the A3 was the frame above the front horn gap, it's not depressed like that on the real engine, that's a modelling thing to follow the footplate, these renders being lifted directly off the Finney7 etch drawings. On the A4 they welded a massive plate across the whole area and they never....or I've never read.....suffered from frame issues, thus the rear end did not need the doubler plate.
MD
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Thank you very much Mick for taking the time to do that so thoroughly. It really seems silly that the A3 is so near the finishing line, so I shall take a few days out after Bristol to strip the chassis and then fettle it to go round Heyside. Perhaps you could cast your eye over it at the weekend and help me with a snagging list.... I'm aware the bogie springs are upside down 
Richard
Richard
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Mick,
I guess that explains why Flying Scotsman is now left with only an approx 6' of original frames over the centre driving wheels...
Steph
I guess that explains why Flying Scotsman is now left with only an approx 6' of original frames over the centre driving wheels...
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Richard, no problems.Thank you very much Mick for taking the time to do that so thoroughly. It really seems silly that the A3 is so near the finishing line, so I shall take a few days out after Bristol to strip the chassis and then fettle it to go round Heyside. Perhaps you could cast your eye over it at the weekend and help me with a snagging list.... I'm aware the bogie springs are upside down
Richard
Visually and being as it's complete, you simply need to add the doubler plate, you can split it to go either side of the stay already fitted, then just fill the other holes as required. For your period #46 had a 94A boiler so you're home and dry there. There is some detail over safety valve positions on some of the boilers, some had them moved forward quite a lot, not researched that too much yet and it's really hard to determine it from photos, some are obviously and clearly different but from some angles it's hard to tell. 60046 was certainly fitted with them further forward, 60080 with them all the way back, example.
The holes around the 2:1 levers in the frame are not right, it's a trough to aid modelling and construction, it should be a oblong opening and they are different sizes on each side. If you're blanking the front hole then an overlay is best as I did on my DA one, covers the hole and makes the opening the right shape.
60046 was a southern ECML engine for 90% of it's life, so you can leave all the smokebox saddle nuts in place
Gateshead engines for some reasonBogie, it's not just the springs, it's the whole casting
which actually makes it easier, simply un-solder and flip over.It's been a few years since I had my head full of A3's and ECML Pacifics so I'm a bit rusty at the moment.
MD
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Steph,Mick,
I guess that explains why Flying Scotsman is now left with only an approx 6' of original frames over the centre driving wheels...
Steph
Not quite, the whole front end of Flying Scotsman was changed, she carries the pre 1933 rebuilt front end shown above.
If you look closely at the photo above you can see the weld line running up from the brake hanger to the reversing rod bracket.
The section over the rear wheels is almost certainly original and that section runs up under the firebox to the rear drag beam. There's actually two sets of frames back there, the inner ones which are part of the main frames and the outer ones which hold the Cartazzi axle box and are bolted onto the main frames. If you wanted to be a real anorak then there should be a step in the frames around the rear brake hanger area.
The A4 is pretty much identical in this area and this is a pretty good picture, from the SNG web site so copyright is theres, that shows the rear bolt on extensions.
The painting guide for the A3 and A4 inside frames is white/cream so that's authentic as well.
MD
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Is that still true - I thought he front end was rebuilt in the last restoration?
Never knew that; it seems a little strange but is entirely practical. Did that extend to other LNER locos d'you know?
Steph
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Steph,
Good point, I'd forgotten they'd changed the front end when they built the new smokebox saddle, so in effect there's three sections of frame, original rear including the trailing driver, rebuilt in the 30's mid section and brand new front end over the bogie.
This is a good picture as it shows the opening for the 2:1 lever, the other side should be half that size (below) vertically. A better picture, again from the SNG society looks right across the engine.
The A3 and A4 'should' be identical in this aspect, on the near side the larger hole which is basically where the 2 part of the 2:1 lever enlarges to fit either side of the 1:1 lever, on the far side the much smaller hole for the thinner end of the 2:1 lever.
As a warning, Flying Scotsman has two large openings in the new section, probably both water jet or laser cut at the same time.
I say should, it could be that when the new frame sections were made in the 30's they simply made one pattern for left and right frames, the GA and frame drawing does not show different size openings. The A4 frame drawing clearly does and original A1 build photos show a small opening on the right side, so they had them at some point.
Not sure on the colour, only seen it on A4's and I thought A3's but can't find that reference photo and I'm sure I read it on one of the LNER paint charts somewhere as well, maybe it's a preservation thing?
MD
Good point, I'd forgotten they'd changed the front end when they built the new smokebox saddle, so in effect there's three sections of frame, original rear including the trailing driver, rebuilt in the 30's mid section and brand new front end over the bogie.
This is a good picture as it shows the opening for the 2:1 lever, the other side should be half that size (below) vertically. A better picture, again from the SNG society looks right across the engine.
The A3 and A4 'should' be identical in this aspect, on the near side the larger hole which is basically where the 2 part of the 2:1 lever enlarges to fit either side of the 1:1 lever, on the far side the much smaller hole for the thinner end of the 2:1 lever.
As a warning, Flying Scotsman has two large openings in the new section, probably both water jet or laser cut at the same time.
I say should, it could be that when the new frame sections were made in the 30's they simply made one pattern for left and right frames, the GA and frame drawing does not show different size openings. The A4 frame drawing clearly does and original A1 build photos show a small opening on the right side, so they had them at some point.
Not sure on the colour, only seen it on A4's and I thought A3's but can't find that reference photo and I'm sure I read it on one of the LNER paint charts somewhere as well, maybe it's a preservation thing?
MD
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John K
Western Thunderer
An example of the restoration paradox now known as the 'Trigger's broom' problem.Mick,
I guess that explains why Flying Scotsman is now left with only an approx 6' of original frames over the centre driving wheels...
Steph
John
Edit: Previously the 'Ship of Theseus' paradox
P A D
Western Thunderer
Well lots of action on here while I've been away, and lots more prototype info to digest. Although provided in response to Richard's questions, it's also very helpful to me so thanks again to Mick.
Not much progress as I have been travelling on business, but I did manage to squeeze in a little bit of build time this evening.
Following the instructions, the next step is to fit the rods for the brake hangers, which highlighted a slight error (unless I've screwed up) in the etchings.
When the 0.8mm rod is inserted through the holes in the frames, it fouls the compenstion beams. It seems to me that the beams are too deep. Had I known, it would have been easy to file a groove in the centre of each at the top, before fitting. Fortunately I have a set of dental burrs and was able to do it in situe using the mini drill. Here's the result.
After soldering the brake hanger rods in place, the next step is to add the water scoop. Here are the castings which are very nice.
Apologies for the photos taken on the work bench mat which has seen much use. Following the example of the Finney boys and others, I've tried to take photos on a clean mat, but I was a bit pressed for time.
After minimal fettling, I epoxied the lower part of the scoop to the upper part, and when that had set, I added the etched lever to the bracket on the lower part, and then epoxied the unit to the middle spacer. Here it is in place with the lever loosely connected to the brackets on the spacer with 1.2mm rod. That's all I had time for but I cleared up and swapped the mat for the final photos.
I will interested to hear what Richard has to say about the depth of the compensation beams and the fouling of the rod for the brake hangers. Mick mentioned earlier that the instructions had been updated so maybe it's covered.
Cheers,
Peter
Not much progress as I have been travelling on business, but I did manage to squeeze in a little bit of build time this evening.
Following the instructions, the next step is to fit the rods for the brake hangers, which highlighted a slight error (unless I've screwed up) in the etchings.
When the 0.8mm rod is inserted through the holes in the frames, it fouls the compenstion beams. It seems to me that the beams are too deep. Had I known, it would have been easy to file a groove in the centre of each at the top, before fitting. Fortunately I have a set of dental burrs and was able to do it in situe using the mini drill. Here's the result.
After soldering the brake hanger rods in place, the next step is to add the water scoop. Here are the castings which are very nice.
Apologies for the photos taken on the work bench mat which has seen much use. Following the example of the Finney boys and others, I've tried to take photos on a clean mat, but I was a bit pressed for time.
After minimal fettling, I epoxied the lower part of the scoop to the upper part, and when that had set, I added the etched lever to the bracket on the lower part, and then epoxied the unit to the middle spacer. Here it is in place with the lever loosely connected to the brackets on the spacer with 1.2mm rod. That's all I had time for but I cleared up and swapped the mat for the final photos.
I will interested to hear what Richard has to say about the depth of the compensation beams and the fouling of the rod for the brake hangers. Mick mentioned earlier that the instructions had been updated so maybe it's covered.
Cheers,
Peter
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Peter,
The compensation beams will impact the brake hanger rods if they pass right across the frames, they should in fact be stubs soldered to the frames.
On my streamlined one I didn't solder the stubs to the frames, I added the rods right across the 2nd and last, but not soldered in place, then I soldered the brake hangers in place and added all the other gubbins and then finally added little stubs to the two remaining ones near the beams. Finally I cut the rods for the 2nd and last to leave stubs attached to the hangers like the other two. These then spring out of the frames and allow the whole brake gear to drop out.
It just made painting it all later easier as it's very difficult to get the wheels in and out once the brake gear is fitted, especially if you're using the 5/32" axles with the wheels pushed on the shaft. You will have an easier job as you have the 3/16" with grub screw in the end.
Small lengths of tube space the front and rear brake hangers the correct distance off the frames, the intermediates are held in place by the twin brake pull rods either side.
On the other two tenders, corridor and GNR, I changed tack and left all the rods in all the way across, but had to then trim the top of the beams to clear them, much like yourself, then I simply slipped the hangers on and off the stubs fixed to the frame. The whole assembly is hinged on the rear brake hanger and when folded up the brake cross shaft clips on to two stub shafts at the front end.
Once painted I added the wheels and flipped over the brake gear, I didn't need to flip over the axle retaining straps, once the brake gear goes on it stops the wheels from dropping out.
I will double check the revised instructions and make sure they explain this aspect as best possible.
Nice clean work btw
Hope that helps.
MD
The compensation beams will impact the brake hanger rods if they pass right across the frames, they should in fact be stubs soldered to the frames.
On my streamlined one I didn't solder the stubs to the frames, I added the rods right across the 2nd and last, but not soldered in place, then I soldered the brake hangers in place and added all the other gubbins and then finally added little stubs to the two remaining ones near the beams. Finally I cut the rods for the 2nd and last to leave stubs attached to the hangers like the other two. These then spring out of the frames and allow the whole brake gear to drop out.
It just made painting it all later easier as it's very difficult to get the wheels in and out once the brake gear is fitted, especially if you're using the 5/32" axles with the wheels pushed on the shaft. You will have an easier job as you have the 3/16" with grub screw in the end.
Small lengths of tube space the front and rear brake hangers the correct distance off the frames, the intermediates are held in place by the twin brake pull rods either side.
On the other two tenders, corridor and GNR, I changed tack and left all the rods in all the way across, but had to then trim the top of the beams to clear them, much like yourself, then I simply slipped the hangers on and off the stubs fixed to the frame. The whole assembly is hinged on the rear brake hanger and when folded up the brake cross shaft clips on to two stub shafts at the front end.
Once painted I added the wheels and flipped over the brake gear, I didn't need to flip over the axle retaining straps, once the brake gear goes on it stops the wheels from dropping out.
I will double check the revised instructions and make sure they explain this aspect as best possible.
Nice clean work btw
Hope that helps.
MD
Tim Watson
Western Thunderer
Jolly useful photo that. Helped me putting the details on my non-streamlined tender.
Many of the models on Western Thunder give a lot of food for thought.....
Tim
P A D
Western Thunderer
Mick,
Thanks for showing what you did with the brake rigging. Very nifty work in both cases.
With me using the 3/16 axles with the screw fitting, I decided to go for a fixed option. First I cut some 3mm spacers from wire insulation and pushed onto the hanger rods. The hangers were then mounted and soldered in place using a strip of card to space them from the wheels. I then added the lower rods and pull rods and spaced them from the wheels front and back using the ubiquitous coffee srirrers from Costa.
Finally the cranks at the front end and the water scoop operating lever were added to complete. Here's the completed unit minus the wheels.
And with the wheels added.
As it stands I can get the wheels in and out with a bit of fiddling. However I may grind back the brake shoes a little to just to ease things and prevent any shorting risks.
Cheers,
Peter
Thanks for showing what you did with the brake rigging. Very nifty work in both cases.
With me using the 3/16 axles with the screw fitting, I decided to go for a fixed option. First I cut some 3mm spacers from wire insulation and pushed onto the hanger rods. The hangers were then mounted and soldered in place using a strip of card to space them from the wheels. I then added the lower rods and pull rods and spaced them from the wheels front and back using the ubiquitous coffee srirrers from Costa.
Finally the cranks at the front end and the water scoop operating lever were added to complete. Here's the completed unit minus the wheels.
And with the wheels added.
As it stands I can get the wheels in and out with a bit of fiddling. However I may grind back the brake shoes a little to just to ease things and prevent any shorting risks.
Cheers,
Peter
adrian
Flying Squad
Hope it works out, although I have to say I'm firmly in the camp of insulated brake shoes for precisely this problem.
If you'd like a set then send me a drawing and I'll cut out a set of parts for you.
P A D
Western Thunderer
Many thanks Adrian,
Your set looks very nice, but I'll see how it turns out when I get a chance to check the clearances.
By the way, I only used cable insulation as it was to hand and was easy to cut. I was going to carefully cut them off with a scalpel but as they are hidden I will leave them in place.
Cheers,
Peter
Your set looks very nice, but I'll see how it turns out when I get a chance to check the clearances.
By the way, I only used cable insulation as it was to hand and was easy to cut. I was going to carefully cut them off with a scalpel but as they are hidden I will leave them in place.
Cheers,
Peter
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
That's why I like resin brake shoes, can't short out then.
Len
Len
S-Club-7
Western Thunderer
Try 3D printed in acrylic or sintered nylon:
Note that these need to fitted the correct way up to match the coned tread of the wheels.
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P A D
Western Thunderer
Thanks Len,
An interesting web site.
I don't doubt the logic of what you say, but if resin brakes shoes can't short if they touch the wheels, they are still touching the wheels. Surely it is better to ensure that the brake shoes are not touching the wheels, in which case it doesn't matter what material they are made of? Each to his/her own though.
Cheers,
Peter
An interesting web site.
I don't doubt the logic of what you say, but if resin brakes shoes can't short if they touch the wheels, they are still touching the wheels. Surely it is better to ensure that the brake shoes are not touching the wheels, in which case it doesn't matter what material they are made of? Each to his/her own though.
Cheers,
Peter
simond
Western Thunderer
I love the logic, but the issue is that lumpy frog, or dodgy rail joint, or bit ot twist in the track, and if your pride & joy brings the layout to a crashing stop because of a brief short... well, the insulating brake shoes reduce the probability of embarrassment.
And they allow you have the shoes prototypically close to the wheels. So I’m in favour.
Best
Simon
And they allow you have the shoes prototypically close to the wheels. So I’m in favour.
Best
Simon