Martin Finney 7mm A3

[P A D]

Ok, a bit more explanation wouldn’t go a miss on how to use these tools as I feel like I need a set but not sure how to use?!

Sorry, I thought it would be clear from what I have written. I have no clue what their intended us it. For loco building applications you can use them to cut tiny discs from shim brass. Because of the indent in the business end the discs are domed and can therefore be used to add rivet detail as described in relation to the 57XX.

For counter punching rivets, you first punche the rivets with your preferred tool ( in my case an auto center punch with the tip modified).
You then have a riveted sheet which will then be bowed which you need to flatten. If you then take smooth (blunt) the rim of a suitable sized punch from the set, you then place it over each of the rivets and tap with a small hammer. When you have done that with all the rivets, you will find that the work piece is then flat again. Hope that is clear.
Cheers,
Pete

 

[GrahamMc]

Ok, a bit more explanation wouldn’t go a miss on how to use these tools as I feel like I need a set but not sure how to use?!

If it's any help these tools are used for setting precious stones using tiny beads of gold and silver that have been raised from the surface of the metal next to a hole in which the stone sits. The 'beads' are then pushed over the edge of the hole on to the stone with the grain tool thus securing it. The end of each grain tool is actually a small concave dome that takes the sliver of metal and forces it into the shape of a nice shiny bead that holds the stone in place. It is not made for punching metal but the shape of the tool will produce the domed shape of rivets. It can also be used for the placing of individually produced rivets. You don't need to buy a set as they can be bought for about £1 (edit, as in £1 each, different sizes being available). Hope that helps.

 

[P A D]

Thanks to Mickoo, I now have a fairly clear idea of which prototypes I can model within the limitations of the kit. However, if possible I would like to expand that by converting the 1936 non corridor A4 tender, to a 1930 non corridor A3 tender.

As far as I can tell looking through all the books, the underframes are identical. The differences are all in the tank (I believe), namely :-

• On the A3 version there is beading up the front edge running along the top below the curve and following the edge of the curve at the rear and along the other side.
• The side sheets turn in at the front.
• The rear plate is slightly higher matching the height of the bulkhead at the back of the bunker.

So, I'm thinking curve in the front edges (modifying the footplate to accommodate that) add the beading and raise the height of the rear tank plate to match that of the rear bunker bulkhead, and he presto, it's a 1930 non corridor A3 tender.

Here are a couple of pics from Brian Dale's A3 build which suggest to me that my hypothesis regarding the differences is correct. Yes I know using other models as references is fraught with danger.





If Mickoo or anyone else can enlighten me as to the feasibility of the suggested conversion, I would much appreciate it. Or, is there some massive pitfall that I cannot see?

Many thanks to Brian for the use of his pics.
Cheers,
Peter

 

[oldravendale]

Just for clarity, the tender above is by David Andrews. I may have mislead you, Peter, by saying that the kit was from DJH - the loco is, the tender isn't.

B

 

[P A D]

Hi Brian,
Now worries. I understood it was DA's.

 

[mickoo]

Just a brief couple of hours research gives the below.

The streamlined 1930 non corridor tender is similar.

The chassis is the same, the front turn is as noted.

The front plate is reduced height so use parts D2 and D3, there is no faring so do not use part D1.

The division plate is a low height and matches the front and rear plates so you'll have to trim part U26 and U27 (and possibly the ribs U28 in height) to match the rear plate profile.

Parts U10 and U29 are not fitted.

Add beading as already noted.

Front end handrails are all 4'-3" high.

Engines fitted in your period are;

60035 Windsor Lad
60038 Firdaussi
60039 Sandwich
60048 Doncaster
60051 Blink Bonney
60053 Sansovino
60060 The Tetrarch
60064 Tagalie
60067 Ladas
60070 Gladiateur
60072 Sunstar
60077 The white knight
60085 Manna
60098 Spion cop
60099 Call boy
60100 Spearmint
60101 Cicero
60111 Enterprise

Of those 60099 and 101 had 107 boilers for most of your period so they're out, the rest had a mix of 94A or 94HP. Without writing the whole lot out (at a rough guess 40 boiler changes) it'll be easier when you pick one for me to let you know which boiler it had if you're interested.

 

[P A D]

Hi Mick,
Many, many thanks. That's brilliant! I just wanted confirmation that my assumptions were correct (or not), but you have gone way beyond that. And thanks also for the very quick reply.

In the meantime I've been pressing on with the tender frames and have fitted the steps and the white metal castings.

The castings took a while to fettle up, not because they need much, but because there are 32 separate parts for the axleboxes, springs and hangers, and the shackles.
The axleboxes were fitted first with the springs located on top, and then soldered from the inside via the locating hole with 145 degree solder. The springs remain loose for now but can't fall out. Then the same was done with the shackles which means there is no cleaning up to do around those excellent castings. That's done on the inside where the file and scraper can be used more aggresivly without fear of damaging anything. As well as cleaning off any excess solder, the locating spigots have to be filed flush to avoid fouling the wheels.


And the underside. The airtank has also been fitted.


And with the chassis slotted in.




The springs are still loose as I ran out time. I'll position them and then run some loctite into hole where the spigot fits into the top of the axlebox. When that's set I'll do the same with the hangers and shackles. Once again, I'm very impressed with how well the parts fit, both the etchings and castings.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

Having considered the information provided by Mickoo, and studied as many photos as I could find of the A3 non corridor tender, I have decided to build it as it comes. Below is an example of why.
It is a crop from "The Book of the A3s" .

Comparing the back of the tender with the etching, the curve is more pronounced so I'm sure it's taller. At the front I believe the height is somewhere between that of the A4 tender as build, and as later cut down when fitted to the A3. Therefore there would be more butchery of the etches required to convert it, along with making a new rear plate.

Mick, sorry to have wasted your time, it was not intentional. Maybe something for you to consider for the future, would be to add additional etchings to make both tenders from the kit.



Anyway on with the build.

I have completed the tender frame subsection apart from fitting the buffers, which is not possible as they come.


As can be seen through the holes in the buffer beam, the frames preclude fitting the nice sprung buffers provided. I note that Mick has written a thread on converting the buffers to being self contained and I may take that option. In the instructions, Mr. Finney suggests elongating the holes to move the buffers inwards! I think not, and have parked them for now and will come back to them later. I would be interested to know how Richard (of the tricky variety) did his.

Slight hiccup with the buffers aside, I'm still bloody impressed with how precise everything fits with this kit.

Here's the tank sides after bending the curve at the top.

Again I used my brother Mick's hefty bending bars to make the curve. The instructions suggest using a 1/4 inch rod which I don't have so Mick's toy was utilised. There are half etch lines on the inside of the curve, so I lined up the first three one at a time starting with the lowest, and made a slight bend using a suitable length of wood. I then reversed the piece and lined up the top half etch line and then made the rest of the curve.
Worked a treat and only a little rubbing down on the outside of the curve will be required to remove any witness marks.

After that various parts need the rivets punching out before assembly of the tank begins . Again this was done with my trusty auto centre punch. The rivets were then counter punched to remove the distortion induced in the workpiece by the punch, as described earlier.
It's best to only punch a small number of rivets at a time before counter punching. Here's one of the bunker sides after punching all the rivets in one go. It is "well bent".

Counter punching with the jewelry tool removes it but j think it's better not to induce this level of distortion.
Here it is completed after punching smaller sections and then counter punching before punching more rivets.


Here it is after bending and soldering.



Here are some of the bulk head parts after punching the rivets. Some of them are half etched.


Here's the rear plate with the laminate in place.


And the other side with the handrails, steps and lamp brackets added.


This is the underside tank top laminated from two parts.


And the topside with the lifting rings and brackets added.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[adrian]

I'm still bloody impressed with how precise everything fits with this kit.

You are seriously not helping my resolve to finish other projects before opening the V2 box!

 

[mickoo]

I did look at photos and the model and that area did flag a difference, but I was too tired for it to register and put it down to just camera angles and scales. RCTS does note both tenders, streamlined non corridor and beaded non corridor are identical in height (top of plates) from the footplate (7'-10" and some odd bits left over).

I don't have a GA for the streamlined non corridor but I do for the beaded variant, so I've had a little dig around and the issue is the height of the cant rail or where the bend starts.

First the smooth sided variant, all images copyright of their owners.


We can see the bend starts quite high up the body side, higher than the top of the cab side sheet. The photo also shows really well the short 4'-3" handrails that match the A3 and not the 4'-6" of the A4, I think about half were modified to 4'-6" and without checking my notes, were kept within the A4 pool.

Now the beaded variant.


The start of the cant rail curve is much lower, virtually level with the top of the cab windows, the lower starting point of the curve will give the impression of a higher end, it isn't they're the same height in the middle just that the beaded one has a larger arc.

Sharp of eye will note this is a beaded A3 corridor tender, it also has a cut down rear end (to allow watering on other regions) as it was used in the 1948 exchanges.

Never the less all the earlier tenders conform to approximately the same height of side sheet, I.E. one that has a cant rail bend in line with the top of the cab windows.

Finally the real deal, an A3 with the beaded 1930 non corridor tender



Again the bend starts roughly in line with the top of the cab windows.

Sorry I wasn't more concise earlier, 1:1 work is a bit of a mare recently and leaves zero time for bugga all else at the moment.

 

[Steph Dale]

Mick,

Yep, I believe there were two LNER corridor tenders cut down for use on the Southern Region Western Section where low water cranes were prevalent. They were used behind the two A4s (Mallard and Seagull). Which would have given the onlooker the odd sight of a blue LNER A4 hauling the chocolate and green Dean GWR dynamometer car and a train composed of refurbished Maunsell or Bulleid stock, in Malachite green...

A sight for (causing) sore eyes!

Sorry for the diversion, but that's a neat picture I need to file away for future reference...

Steph

 

[P A D]

You are seriously not helping my resolve to finish other projects before opening the V2 box!

Hey Adrian, it's not my fault that some unscrupulous temptress of a trader, forced you to buy his wares! You just have to shut your eyes when you walk past all the shiny shiny things on their stands.

Mick, no apology needed from your side and thanks for your further efforts in clarifying things.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Peter.

Tender height not withstanding, (and I'd always defer to Mickoo on anything like that) I've also been surprised at the "elongate the hole" instruction for the buffers. I've converted mine, when building MF kits, to self contained, using a process initiated in the Guild Journal with my own modifications, but following precisely the same principle. In fact Martin is not alone in using the "elongate the hole" option to accommodate the buffer housing without modification. I've certainly built at least one other tender from another manufacturer (it may have been David Andrews) which proposes the same process, or actually moving the outside frames to accommodate the buffer housings.

That's not to say that it's necessarily the best option, but it's arguably a pragmatic solution which allows use of conventionally available accessories.

Brian

 

[Silverystreaks]

Peter

It does not surprise me that you have decided to stick with the streamline non corridor tender provided. It is virtually impossible to convert the body parts to represent the beaded type tender. Despite the small number of A3s that were coupled to the streamline type there are still some great names to chose from.

For my own part as I wanted a Gateshead loco I chickened out and sourced a beaded type from elsewhere to match with my MF A3.

The MF kit builds into a perfect 7mm representation of an A3 and probably my favourite 7mm model

Considering the expertise now within the Finney 7 partners I would have thought producing an alternative set of etchings to represent a 1930 Non corridor beaded type high sided tender would not be an overly difficult project..... just not a pressing priority

Bob

 

[Dikitriki]

Hi,

Bob's right. There are two obvious tenders missing from the 'A3/A4' range. The one referred to above, which has been reqested a few times, but more particularly the bow ended tender. The latter is a reasonable priority, but getting the GW range and the A1/A3/A4/W1 engines out is higher on the list.

Richard

 

[mickoo]

Both the 1930 non corridor beaded and corridor bow ended are in the future works program. But given the differences they're not a simple etch change or supplimentary etch package.

MD

 

[P A D]

I've now got most of the tank done. Here's where it's at. The uper and lower front bulheads are only placed for the photos, as I need to add more details before fixing them in place. Also I still have to add the front lifting rings to the brackets while the access is still good.


Cheers,
Peter

 

[Scale7JB]

Lovely!!

JB.

 

[P A D]

Before fitting the front bulkheads I added various small parts in the flat. Here they are ready to go in, with the brake and water scoop handles etc., plus the footplate etchings.


Here's the bulkheads and footplate after fitting.


And from the other side after fitting the vent pipes, lifting rings and front fairing.


And with the fairing added to the rear bunker bulkhead and rear tank plate.


Here's a shot with the castings placed in their mounting but not soldered yet.


Cheers,
Peter

 

[P A D]

The final details have now been added to the tender, just leaving the buffers and draw bar to complete it.

I beefed up the mounting brackets on the scoop and brake standard with some waste etch, and added the water level indicator and spare lamp bracket to the inside of the left hand side sheet.


And the water filler.


I also cut out some circles of 10 thou plastic sheet to convert the spoke wheels to discs. I used a couple of spring bow dividers to cut the circles by just scribing with the needles. I will stick them over the spokes later with super glue.


I've left the tender for now and made a start on the loco chassis. Here are the frames with the wheels added. The front and rear axles will be fixed, with the middle one allowed some vertical movement controlled by a simple wire spring.


Cheers,
Peter