simond

Western Thunderer
Apropos the discussion that started in Simon’s “Back End” thread, rather than clog his layout progress, herewith a new thread to gather ideas and links for radio control of locos, and the resultant possibility of no track wiring, so-called “Dead Rail”.

I’m aware of several approaches, Deltang appears to be popular, I have experimented with Tam Valley, and people have used conventional analog R/C in a variety of scales, gauges & prototypes. It’s also possible to dissect cheap r/c toys, and use the gubbins in models.

Years back in my 16mm days, I had a live steam Ffestiniog “Prince” with single channel r/c and a fairly chunky freelance BB “diesel” using lima motor bogies, a burglar alarm battery and an analog 27MHz set with an early ESC. The Limas weren’t up to it and were swapped for home brew bogies with Buhlers.

My experiments with the Tam Valley gear are described here. My objective was to get the benefits of r/c with the advantage of DCC synchronised sound, and the availability of a wide range of sound projects. Second hand Duchess

I’m aware of a number of threads on the G0G forum.

Giles Favell has done lots using Deltang equipment.

I’m sure there’s lots of other good stuff out there.

Atb
Simon
 

Scale7JB

Western Thunderer
Chris, I looked into the Deltang bits a while back for a project, and once it clicks it's all very simple.

I think there are plenty of videos on YouTube that may help your understanding of how everything works.

JB.
 

Tim Watson

Western Thunderer
Good timing, Simon. I will be using dead rail on my Lynton project 4mm - Lynton & Lynmouth - 4mm scale, 8mm gauge.and have just ordered some stuff from Micron Radio Control : Model Railway Radio Control. The engines will have delightfully simple scratch built chassis powered by a Maxon 6v motor & 1:4 gear box at 6mm diameter, lying down between the wheels with a 1:18 transfer box. One 3.7v LiPo battery should suffice, but experiments await.

Battery power gives the added bonus that wing and check rails can remain ‘rusty’. The wiring simplification also appeals, as I was not looking forward to using the Devils Control Circuitry as a means of managing the 6v motors. I will probably also use mechanical control of the points and signals.

Tim
 
Dapol 58xx Deltang r/c

simond

Western Thunderer
Herewith an RTR 58xx with Deltang R60/22, and a Turnigy 370mAh 3s (11.1V nominal) battery.


The battery I purchased is 60 x 30 x 10 mm, which is a bit too porky to fit in the smokebox, I will see if there’s something smaller available.

The receiver is tiny, approx 22 x 12mm and a couple of mm thick. It will handle 1.3A at 18v, though is recommended for voltages around 13V. I chose this arrangement as it allows me keep the drivetrain of the loco unchanged, which is important for my cunning plan.

image.jpg

it gives a reasonable turn of speed on Porth Dinllaen, certainly far more than the prototype would consider in a loco shed yard! Once this lockdown is relaxed, I will give it a run at John’s outdoor track, and we can see how useful, or not, it is, bearing in mind that the Dapol loco would have trouble with a rice pudding skin when going chimney first.

The transmitter works, not sure what else to say! It has adjustable inertia, and can control up to 12 locos, one at a time. There are also channels which could control sounds, couplers etc. It is possible to purchase receivers with speed control and servos (think boats & cars) which may also have rail applications.

image.jpg

Total outlay about £45 for a loco, and £70 for the controller, a LiPo charger is also required. Way cheaper than DCC, no track power or track cleaning, but no sound. Charging needs to be considered, and NiMH batteries offer a less Prima Donna option which might make in-loco charging simpler.

I know Giles Favell has done a lot with the Deltang receivers using lower voltages, this is cheaper, and a smaller install, but loses the ease of conversion of a collection of locos, which is a key aspect of this project.

more soon,
Simon
 

ChrisBr

Western Thunderer
Simon,
Looks very nice (as someone also contemplating this route), it would be great to see how slow you can reliably get it to run as well as how fast?

Chris
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Chris,

I’ll try to get a video over a few yards in due course, but it runs at a bit under 10% throttle as slowly as you see in the video, and I think it would probably do it all day. “Reliably” isn’t an issue, it’s not going to stall or stutter, unless there’s something in the way, or the gradient is too steep for the throttle setting, or, given the loco, it starts wheel slipping. Or the battery is flat of course.

if you follow the links back to my Duchess thread on RMWeb, you’ll see my problem was not “quick enough” or “slow enough”, or even “powerful enough”, it was that I occasionally lost control, typically when running with a big train up hill, quickly, suggesting the system was suffering some kind of “brown out” which I never got to the bottom of. Loss of control with a big loco, and a rake of someone else’s coaches, is likely to prove expensive, and is no use to anyone. Reliability must be the first criterion.

That system did have sound, as it used the Tam Valley transmitter & receiver driving a Zimo decoder, powered by a variety of LiIon battery configurations. My conclusion was that the receiver was the weakest link, though I’d be happy to be proven wrong!

Second hand Duchess

For this project, I’m prepared to forego the chuff, though I do like sound (though default settings are IMO daft) as I feel it adds to the illusion. I like the more sophisticated smoke/steam effects too, but it’s a step too far for me.

Next step is sorting a battery that fits inside the loco.

atb
Simon
 
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cbrailways

Western Thunderer
Hi Simon. I also have the MICRON system. The inertia control takes some getting used to, so be careful in the meantime not to run off the end of the layout! Personally I think battery/radio control is the way forward.
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
As Simon rightly points out, I so far use 3.7v - purely because I'm building the chassis, so I might as well fit low voltage motors.

These two are the most recent (7mm 14mm gauge). The Hunslet has a 700mAh battery fitted which will give in excess if a full days exhibition work, and the Peckett has a 450mAh battery, which should give 5 hours or so. Both are fitted with identical 8mm gearmotors. It would be possible to switch the batteries over during the day, but I would rather not, to avoid potential damage to paintwork/accidents etc...

Reliability is superb, and you do sort of notice it over point work where there is not the slightest hesitation. I've never had interference or signal problems with this DSM2 system.

If I were to scratch-build or kit build a standard gauge loco, I would likely to the same route.

 
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ChrisBr

Western Thunderer
Giles,
I've been following your work with the small motor/gearbox combinations and can see they work very well for your small NG locos. Do you think they would cope with a small standard gauge tank engine, in my case a GWR 517 or will it need more grunt to as Simon puts it "pull the skin off the pudding"?

Chris
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
I think I would use an N20 gearmotor - the same as I use in my lorries- they are unstoppable! You would have no power problems, and if you reset the PWM on the receiver to 60Hz, it should respond nicely, whilst still being extremely compact.

IMG_6584 by giles favell, on Flickr
 
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SimonT

Western Thunderer
Next step is sorting a battery that fits inside the loco

That was the bit that frustrated me. The Tam Valley approach has the benefit of using the existing DCC set up but needed a receiver, a voltage regulator, battery, charging socket and on/off switch and lots of wires. All wired components come with different thickness wires - so which should you use? When the loco is a Pannier with a solid boiler/tank, room starts to become scarce when trying to fit all the above with 2S batteries and the largest possible speaker in a box.

I look forward to your success!
Simon
 

simond

Western Thunderer
The Dapol 48/58xxx chassis has a couple of lumps of metal over the splashers of the rear drivers, presumably in an attempt to ballast it sufficiently to allow it to haul an autocoach or two wagons and a brake van - just to clarify, it's not the loco lacking power, it's a traction issue caused by a sub-optimal suspension design; 0-4-2 and similar locos are prone to this issue.

If I am to convert this loco to BPRC, and if it will fit, I can saw/file/mill the said lumps off, and fit a lead cylinder in the smokebox, which will more than compensate, I feel. If it does not, then more serious surgery involving proper compensation may follow :)

And if I convert it back again, I can always replace the mazak with lead, so no pain there.

more soon
Simon
 

cbrailways

Western Thunderer
...of course, this is what happens if you don't get the inertia setting right....

JS143639337.jpg
 

Giles

Western Thunderer
Andy at Micron is on the case to come up with an alternative though - so some disruption, but hopefully only temporary !
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Yes, I saw that. I’m just having a similar problem on a rather larger scale at work, a key microprocessor supplier has major global shortages - which would be a bummer, if you’re dependent on it. It’s a double bummer if you have just validated a major product launch, and are just hitting to “go” button to be told, “well you’re ok for 3 months but no guarantees after that”.

Trouble is, the whole auto industry uses these chips, and they’re flexing financial muscles that we cannot imagine. We are well down the pecking order, 500 per year. Audi probably do that in a single shift in a single plant.

well, no point in worrying, there’s absolutely nothing I can do that will change matters.

ho hum
Simon
 
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