Scratch-building Modern Image Wagons (S Scale)

FH47331

Member
Hello all,
Something of a newbie here - well a total newbie to be honest, I’ve only joined WT in the past couple of days! I have modelled in various scales over the years, but for a variety of reasons not got that far. I seem to get my attention turned by something in another scale! Have done N, OO and O in the past, but have decided to have a go with S Scale, both to try and do something really different, and so that I don’t get distracted by a RTR model!

The medium-term plan therefore is a small steelworks-style layout, based on the late 1980s/early 1990s era, possibly in the future developing to include some exchange sidings with British Rail. The one exception to the time period will be the internal steelworks locos, for which I love the Di8 machines that GBRf use internally at Scunthorpe. Something about them is just so different from anything else.

IU20170210-DSC_2145.jpg

So much scratch building ahead, but having never done anything like this, it will definitely be a trial and error, and learn from one’s mistakes project.

I am starting with scratch building a modern BDA wagon first. Fairly simple as wagons go, once the bogie is done, its simply replicated for the other end. I had a thought that maybe building one body - which is primarily frames and the buffer beam bulkheads - and getting a mould done, so that I could both easily create more copies in white metal and to consequently build a wagon that had some weight to it, could be the answer, but I don’t know if that may be too expensive - maybe resin would be a better option with some liquid lead underneath for weight? Detailing parts are currently planned to be etched nickel silver where possible, maybe with some small brass attachments. I am thinking that the wooden flooring and bolsters will be laser cut ply items so that they retain their wood effect, with some small brass bar for the uprights? I have spoken with Colin at Alan Gibson with regards wheels, with S Scale-suitable axles and bearings, and he is going to sort those out. I think going for the 4mm wheels with an EM profile is the best way forward from what various people, including some current S modellers have told me.

20071030-DSC_2643.jpg

The BDAs, like many wagons, had so many variations. The former vacuum-braked bolsters were converted with brake blocks and a hand brake lever each side. Non-vacuum-braked examples had disc brakes with a circular handbrake wheel on each side of each Y25C bogie. The original floors were wooden, these were then supplemented with metal overlays in the floor, so plenty of variety to be built into the mix.

20071030-DSC_2643-3.jpg

20071030-DSC_2643-2.jpg

IU20170210-DSC_2174.jpg

Once I have built the wagon, assuming it comes out ok, I may look to build a short photo plank with some basic S Scale track work on, before creating another BDA example. There are so many physical differences, along with colour schemes, that a number could be built without any duplication! Eventually, I need to scratch build a Janus or two, for which I have plenty of images from the Scunthorpe ones. I thought this would probably a nice easy compensated chassis to start with? That is someway in to the future however, but I hope I can start on some design for the loco before the end of the year. All of this is the build up long-term for a steelworks based layout, both with internal aspects, and possibly a small exchange Yard with BR. But I want to prove I can build the locos and wagons needed before laying any track!

20071002-DSC_1608.jpg

For the avoidance of doubt all of the images attached are mine and have been taken in the course of official visits to Scunthorpe Works. Happy for anyone to make use of them for their own personal collections or modelling reference, but please don't repost anywhere without asking first.

Although I appreciate that the more modern day scene (no I’ve no interest in building a Class 66!) holds less of an appeal for some, I hope some may find an interest. I have just joined the S Scale Society, which I am hoping will open the door to a bits and pieces for trackwork. This will be a slow and steady project, fitted in, in between work and family, but that's what hobbies are all about isn't it - our relaxation time!

I did debate whether this should be in the S Scale part of the forum, but felt it was more workbench based than layout. Please do join in an offer any thoughts (good or bad) as I progress. Feedback and constructive criticism is how we all improve, so I will not be upset if you think I am going the wrong way about something!

Richie
 

Lyndhurstman

Western Thunderer
Hello @FH47331/Richie

Blimey. There’s dipping a toe in the water, but this is more whole body immersion! I’ve always been intrigued by S Scale - Jas Milham’s East Anglian forays were always read with interest, and the having to make most of everything was appealing. I do have a couple of South Dock NZR resin kits in 1/64th buried in the stash... But making those wagons is an intriguing prospect. Good luck with it. Here’s looking forward to lots of blow-by-blow photos of your progress...

Cheers

Jan
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
I am starting with scratch building a modern BDA wagon first. Fairly simple as wagons go, once the bogie is done, its simply replicated for the other end. I had a thought that maybe building one body - which is primarily frames and the buffer beam bulkheads - and getting a mould done, so that I could both easily create more copies in white metal and to consequently build a wagon that had some weight to it, could be the answer, but I don’t know if that may be too expensive - maybe resin would be a better option with some liquid lead underneath for weight? Detailing parts are currently planned to be etched nickel silver where possible, maybe with some small brass attachments. I am thinking that the wooden flooring and bolsters will be laser cut ply items so that they retain their wood effect, with some small brass bar for the uprights? I have spoken with Colin at Alan Gibson with regards wheels, with S Scale-suitable axles and bearings, and he is going to sort those out. I think going for the 4mm wheels with an EM profile is the best way forward from what various people, including some current S modellers have told me.

Richie,

My first thought when looking at the wagon is that etching might be an option since it is a long thin body and I'm not sure how that might work in resin. In fact, it might be easiest just to scratchbuild it from nickel silver sheet. :) Or even Plastikard. :):)

The bogies look like a candidate for 3D printing. Use inside bearings so that you don't need to worry about putting bearings in the 3D print resin. It also means that you can use 4mm scale axles rather than S scale length ones. I think Colin Seymour might be short of S scale ones. :)

Jim.
 

FH47331

Member
Thanks for the comments and likes guys.

Hello @FH47331/Richie
Blimey. There’s dipping a toe in the water, but this is more whole body immersion! I’ve always been intrigued by S Scale - Jas Milham’s East Anglian forays were always read with interest, and the having to make most of everything was appealing. I do have a couple of South Dock NZR resin kits in 1/64th buried in the stash... But making those wagons is an intriguing prospect. Good luck with it. Here’s looking forward to lots of blow-by-blow photos of your progress...
Jan

Thanks Jan ... I think!
I am a little bit the same. I have thought about S in the past, but discounted it because of the scratch building element, and primarily because I have never got on with kits - whether they are buildings or structures. Then a couple of years ago, I sat down in Illustrator and designed a small building, had it laser cut and was really impressed with how it came out. I went on to do a couple of other things for friends, and realised that while I am not good at following instructions, I was reasonably decent at making my own. I have gradually come round to the line of thinking that scratch building, which I thought was way beyond my skill set, actually was not. I have watched some videos on YouTube of locomotive chassis building, and read a couple of books, and concluded, working from my own design, I really could do this. Hence, this body immersion!

As for photos, I will definitely do a blow-by-blow, aside from anything, I am keen to learn if there is something that I should be doing an easier or better way.


Richie,
My first thought when looking at the wagon is that etching might be an option since it is a long thin body and I'm not sure how that might work in resin. In fact, it might be easiest just to scratchbuild it from nickel silver sheet. :) Or even Plastikard. :):)

The bogies look like a candidate for 3D printing. Use inside bearings so that you don't need to worry about putting bearings in the 3D print resin. It also means that you can use 4mm scale axles rather than S scale length ones. I think Colin Seymour might be short of S scale ones. :)

Jim.

Hi Jim,
I think you may well be right. The initial build will certainly be etched, although having said that a 3D print may be an option, depending on whether it would warp. I did wonder about Plastikard for the initial base, but did not know if it would be too flexible? The sides would certainly give it strength, but is it enough?

Colin thought he could do the axles ok, but there were no S Scale wheels available at all when I spoke to him earlier in the week. Thanks to a friend I have managed to acquire a copy of the original General Arrangement drawings for the Y25C bogies, and looking at them an etched bolster with 3D detailing is (I think) possible, but I think a full 3D print would be better and more detailed throughout.

I am intrigued by your comment about inside bearings - presumably you mean so that they could be set to accommodate standard 4mm axles, just with the wheels set to the right back-to-back for S Scale? Colin is going to provide some pinpoint top hat bearings with the wheels/axles, but I guess its the same bearing type for both 4mm and S?

Richie
 

FH47331

Member
They look rather like a variation the MaK/Vossloh G1206 used by various European rail operators.

Yes, the fore-runners in many respects. They are a Mak/Siemens design, and were previously operating 60mph freight services in Norway. Seven remain in service over there, and one was scrapped. The other twelve are now with GBRf, although four are either out of service or stripped for parts to keep the other eight working. Interesting, most of the onboard systems and labels remain in Norweigan, with only a couple of the onboard computer screens having been translated.

Having been in the cab of one, the acceleration ‘light engine’ is impressive, and the British Steel drivers say, its very easy, even with a heavy train, to get above the 20mph that they are now limited to on site if they are not careful. They are built to the European loading gauge of course, which causes minimal problems at Scunthorpe Works, although because of gauging there is a couple of places they cannot go, including around the blast furnaces, which is the reason they cannot work the Torpedo wagons. But the cabs are huge!

I am lucky to have officially clambered all over one of these with a tape measure so have photos and measurements of most parts of them. The main frames are somewhat an odd shape, with walkways and steps. I am really keen to push on and design one of these, but am really trying to reign myself in and take baby steps, making sure I can walk before running.

Richie
 
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ScottW

Western Thunderer
Like you, I have never got on with kit building. In some cases I felt I could do a better job myself. Moving from 4mm to S Scale was the best modelling decision I ever made. If you enjoy the satisfaction of producing something you created yourself then you will feel right at home working in S.

I will admit to wincing a little when reading your post, I imagine you will have your work cut out but I wish you every success and look forward to seeing progress with interest.

Scott
 

FH47331

Member
I will admit to wincing a little when reading your post, I imagine you will have your work cut out but I wish you every success and look forward to seeing progress with interest.
Scott

Thanks Scott,
To be honest, that was one of the reasons I thought start with a wagon and see how I get on! The rest is all aspirational at this stage :)

I have been able to progress the CAD design for the bogie a bit the morning, so once I am happy with things, I'll share some screenshots and show the progress.

Richie
 

FH47331

Member
Evening all,
Two steps forward, and one step back tonight. I have progressed the bogie CAD design, and had got the side frames reasonably well designed too, but then decided it just didn't look right, so have stepped back to where I am happy with. Still its progress, even if it doesn't look much. Somebody said blow-by-blow images, well this more of a breath lol!

Y25C Bogie_snapshot-v1.png

The actual frames are more of a 'U' shape turned 45 degrees inwards, and these have yet to be 'shelled' out, one of the later steps I think. But it shows that things are underway. The scale drawings that my mate managed to acquire from the Y25C bogies are a huge boon.

Richie
 

FH47331

Member
Quick update on things, finally have the side frames sorted on one side, hopefully I’ll get chance this weekend to progress a bit further. Also the wheels, S scale axles and pin-point bearings have arrived from Alan Gibson. So I should now be able to sort the accurate measurements out for inside the bogies.

A question for you chaps, if I may, the axles are 30.5mm long, these sit in the bearings - what tolerance should I leave for movement, I’m raring about .25mm at either end, but is that too much?

Richie
 

Rob R

Western Thunderer
There shouldn't really be any/minimal clearance - but no bind either.

Invariably there is a variation of "depth" in pin pount bearings and not always a true cone either, the upside being that you can "mix and match" the bearings to compensate for other "intolerances" - axle length, depth of bearing hole in frame etc.

Looking forward to seeing these in the flesh at the next SSMRS agm (6th March 2021 for anyone who wants to dip a toe in the water.....)

Rob
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Richie,

Also the wheels, S scale axles and pin-point bearings have arrived from Alan Gibson.

You had better luck than I ever had. :)

A question for you chaps, if I may, the axles are 30.5mm long, these sit in the bearings - what tolerance should I leave for movement, I’m raring about .25mm at either end, but is that too much?

Like Rob says, you really want pin point axles to locate fully in the pin point bearings - like the three bears, not too tight, not too loose, but just right. :) Normally the bearings are used in brass or nickel silver "W" irons and you can adjust them to just pinch the axles into the bearings to give good running. I'm not sure how you will manage anything like that with your bogie, hence my earlier suggestion of an inside bearing bogie with your outer bogie frame as a cosmetic attachment to it.

Jim.
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
Richie,

One thought I've just had if you don't want to use inside bearings. I remember an article from the 1960s in the MRN where one of the Manchester club members fitted pinpoint bearings to 4mm scale wagons with white metal "W" irons and axleboxes. He drilled right through the axles holes and tapped for a small screw thread - maybe around 10 or 12 BA - then inserted brass grub screws with pin point recesses on their ends in to the tapped holes. The axle was inserted and the screws adjusted until the axle was located between the pin point recesses and the pin point bearings were at just the right setting. The grub screws were of such a length that they were recessed into the holes in the axleboxes when adjusted and the recesses were filled to disguise the holes. I suspect the filling was one that could be removed easily if you ever wanted to remove the axles at a later date. With some modern axleboxes it might be possible to incorporate the brass screw as an obvious part of the axle box.

Jim.
 

FH47331

Member
There shouldn't really be any/minimal clearance - but no bind either.
Invariably there is a variation of "depth" in pin pount bearings and not always a true cone either, the upside being that you can "mix and match" the bearings to compensate for other "intolerances" - axle length, depth of bearing hole in frame etc.
Looking forward to seeing these in the flesh at the next SSMRS agm (6th March 2021 for anyone who wants to dip a toe in the water.....)
Rob

Ooh now that means I really should push on and get these sorted! My S Scale mags have arrived, but haven’t been through them all yet, so thanks for the heads up on the date. Cheers for the info too, that’s useful, I’d assumed that being spot on would make them too tight, but as Jim said, not to slack, not to tight. I shall have a cheap dummy bogie, with the internals printed right, but no detailing to check they run correctly so that should give a good indication.

Richie,
Like Rob says, you really want pin point axles to locate fully in the pin point bearings - like the three bears, not too tight, not too loose, but just right. :) Normally the bearings are used in brass or nickel silver "W" irons and you can adjust them to just pinch the axles into the bearings to give good running. I'm not sure how you will manage anything like that with your bogie, hence my earlier suggestion of an inside bearing bogie with your outer bogie frame as a cosmetic attachment to it.
Jim.

Thanks Jim. I am mulling a couple of thoughts, either to make the bogies fixed in terms of height, given there are no pickups, or to make the axle boxes movable, up and down by .5mm and use some guitar string to even out across the two axles on the bogie, a form of amateur compensation if you like. The idea from the Manchester club chap is interesting too.

Richie
 
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