7mm The Old Man's Workbench - tales of a rivet side

Ressaldar

Western Thunderer
Hi Graham,

for what its worth, I use Glue'n Glaze, painted on neat all around the window openings, with the glazing cut to cover the maximum number of apertures between door frames etc. If there appears to be insufficient at any point, a lightly loaded brush can be run down the edge of the glazing and that usually does the trick. Any surplus can be removed with a damp cotton bud or the like, plus the 'back-up' situation of the glue dries clear.

kind regards

Mike
 

Landy

Member
I agree with Glue n Glaze being the way to go, as Mike said it dries completely clear and it doesn't frost plastic . If you have any left around the edges after it has dried if you use a dampened cocktail stick you can carefully pick it all off without damaging the glazing.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
For the past week I have been cutting parts from the etch sheet and removing cusps... plus drilling holes for casting spigots. At the last count over 100 of 0.45mm holes in the two sides alone.

So what is the mystery carriage? Actually a bit of mystery in respect of the records, here is a photo to illustrate the prototype:-

F16 slip coach.jpg

The photo above was taken at Swindon and is credited to Roye England by Jim Russell, the copyright is probably with Pendon Museum. I make no claim as to either ownership or copyright, I have included the photo here under "Fair Use".

Here are a couple of photos of the etch sides as removed from the etch sheet and after fitting the door catch / plates plus drilling the holes for castings.
001.JPG

In the photo below the top side has been reversed so that one can see how the corridor arrangement matches to the compartment side.
002.JPG

So what is this coach and what is the mystery?

The prototype photo shows the corridor side of a GWR Toplight Double Slip carriage and that is replicated in the model parts... four third class and two first class compartments separated by a toilet compartment. "Double slip" means that there is a Guard's compartment with "slip gear" at each end of the carriage. For convenience, let us refer to this carriage as Diagram F16 - just that Harris ("Great Western Coaches") makes no reference to diagram F16 and there are no such carriages in his lot list. Russell ("Great Western Coaches", four different volumes published by OPC) confuses the issue by including a drawing of the body arrangement under the reference Diagram F15 (which is included in the Harris Lot List). Operationally, there is no difference between F15 and F16 because the body difference is in the arrangement of the compartments and corridors.

Suffice to say, John Lewis (HMRS Steward for GWR Carriage Stock) has sorted the matter and he has advised that Diagram F15 and Diagram F16 were built on the same Lot - advice from John is freely given and is a real benefit of membership of the Historical Model Railway Society.

People often start a build of loco or carriage with photos of the contents of the box... such is not possible with this build as the model is a CPL kit and there are omissions (deliberate) in the kit as purchased, the "kit" is a single etch sheet to cover sides, ends, corridor screens and partitions plus bolections, droplights, door hinges and catch plates. The builder is left to source a roof, a floor and all castings. Thankfully there are a good number of appropriate castings in the CPL catalogue and photos of those items shall be included as the build progresses. Where I have no idea as to source at the moment is a rolled brass roof... vacuum brake cylinders... vacuum brake reservoirs... gas reservoirs... and what ever else I have yet to identify as needed. If WTers are interested I can create a list of what is required beyond the etch sheet from CPL.

Following on from advice from Heather (@Heather Kay) and Robin (@Rob Pulham), I am detailing the sides with overlays that are included in the CPL kit... so door catch plates, door bump stops. At some point I shall have to form the turnunder (advice received from Rob) and fold the angles at the top and bottom of the sides. Here is another request for advice... the half-etch slots along the top and bottom of the side are rather wide... something like 2mm in width for brass sheet which is 15thou thick, see photo below:-

003.JPG

Given the width of the slot, where would you place the edge of the bending bar?

And finally, the CPL etch underframe is limited to headstocks, solebars, some transoms and truss bars. Given that a GWR slip coach has a considerable amount of hardware hung from the underframe then I shall be trying to build something closer to the prototype. One of our midst, Barry of Metalsmith (@lankytank), has been very helpful in sorting milled brass section which are appropriate to the sections used by the GWR - even to providing the material in a postal tube for collection at the recent Reading Trade Show.

regards, Graham
 
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Overseer

Western Thunderer
Given the width of the slot, where would you place the edge of the bending bar?
Personally, I would cut the top and bottom extensions off rather than bend them. The bottom of the beading should have a nearly square edge not the radius bending the thick brass will give, and it will be easier to fit the roof without big shells at the top of the sides. The carriage will be more than strong enough with the sides soldered to a plain brass floor.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
... I would cut the top and bottom extensions off rather than bend them. The bottom of the beading should have a nearly square edge not the radius bending the thick brass will give, and it will be easier to fit the roof without big shells at the top of the sides. The carriage will be more than strong enough with the sides soldered to a plain brass floor.

Interesting approach and one worth considering.

Fraser, (@Overseer), working out where to cut the etch side so as to remove "the bottom angle" may be an interesting challenge, similarly the top edge of the side. I agree that the body ought to be "solid" if the sides are soldered to the floor especially with eight partitions to support the compartment side, less so for the corridor side with just four partitions to support that side (two for the toilet compartment and one for each guard's compartment).

Removing the top angle could leave a tricky situation in respect of a decent joint between the roof and the sides. Given that I do not have a roof at this time, and may have to resort to rolling a roof, arranging for the roof to sit neatly on the 15 thou thick side may be interesting.

I am leaning towards a removable roof so that I can glaze the coach after painting and to fit passengers.

Fraser, how would you arrange the meeting of side and roof?
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
As an idea....

If you removed the top extension and soldered on a strip of suitable H section (with the slot in the H being the same thickness as the brass side) this would provide two things - a slot into which the roof would sit and the gutter.
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Graham,

As I earlier remarked, I loathe building coaches, but I am very interested in your progress on this, and I’m sure many of us would find a list of extras needed above & beyond the etches to be really helpful.

In building my Blacksmith toplights, I used Barry’s anglue along the cantrail to create gutters. My roofs were a la Jenkinson, ie spindle-moulded hardwood, supplied by a chap in Rhyl, iirc, covered in cartridge paper. They simply drop in between the gutters and are snug between the ends. This approach is probably easier than rolling brass.

HTH
Simon
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
In building my Blacksmith toplights, I used Barry’s anglue along the cantrail to create gutters. My roofs were ... spindle-moulded hardwood, supplied by a chap in Rhyl...
Thank you Simon, an interesting solution to the matter of roof material. If you remember the contact then please post here.

I am not sure that I understand what you did for your Toplights, please can we have a sketch?

regards, Graham
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Thank you Simon, an interesting solution to the matter of roof material. If you remember the contact then please post here.

I am not sure that I understand what you did for your Toplights, please can we have a sketch?

regards, Graham

Graham,

Hang on and you’ll get a photo or two!

If you have or can borrow a copy of David Jenkinson’s plasticard coach book, all is revealed therein.

I rather fear the chap concerned retired some many years back. I haven’t got his name or contact details to hand but if I can find them, I’ll forward.

Season’s Greetings
Simon
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Interesting approach and one worth considering.

Fraser, (@Overseer), working out where to cut the etch side so as to remove "the bottom angle" may be an interesting challenge, similarly the top edge of the side. I agree that the body ought to be "solid" if the sides are soldered to the floor especially with eight partitions to support the compartment side, less so for the corridor side with just four partitions to support that side (two for the toilet compartment and one for each guard's compartment).

Removing the top angle could leave a tricky situation in respect of a decent joint between the roof and the sides. Given that I do not have a roof at this time, and may have to resort to rolling a roof, arranging for the roof to sit neatly on the 15 thou thick side may be interesting.

I am leaning towards a removable roof so that I can glaze the coach after painting and to fit passengers.

Fraser, how would you arrange the meeting of side and roof?
Graham,
Now the Christmas presents have been opened I have a few minutes to spare. It is warming up this morning, a beautiful clear day heading for about 30 degrees - the beach beckons after the big Christmas lunch.

The bottom cut should be easy enough to work out, the width of the panel beading should be left in place. The line probably goes through the etched line representing the bottom of the doors. In reality the breaks in the beading at the door edges would be barely visible when the doors are closed. The top cut should be just under the gutter. Dave's gutter idea would work. I would probably use a wooden roof or make a plasticard roof to the profile. Either way it is easier and stronger if the roof sits down below the gutter level, it also eliminates the chance of light showing through the gap between sides and roof. I might get a chance later to take a photo of a polyurethane resin roof I did for a etched brass carriage kit I produced years ago with a similar arrangement.

Merry Christmas
 

Overseer

Western Thunderer
To explain what I was describing, some photos of the test build of a Highland Railway carriage kit I produced in the late 90s. It is a bit grubby, but then it has sat unfinished for 20 years. The pattern for the roof was made in styrene and cast in polyurethane resin. The roof fits inside the sides and ends and overlaps all round. For the GWR toplight you could have the gutters on the body or the roof. Also the toplights mean you would have to have only about a mm or 2 below the top of the sides so the toplights are not obscured.
HRd17 1.jpg
HRd17 2.jpg
HRd17 4.jpg
HRd17 3.jpg
 
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simond

Western Thunderer
Graham, as discussed,

herewith some photos of one of my Blacksmith coaches, I started building the rake about 20 years back, and might get them to a presentable state one day...

1F15F3B8-2A1B-45B7-8218-532AAC61B85D.jpeg

40885211-CA9A-4F83-8CE9-1DF5AA125085.jpeg

5D71A08C-E09E-4FE2-9A94-D8468CB1EAC4.jpeg

The cantrails are, as I said, from Metalsmith, they are approx 2 mm high, 5mm wide, and are filed back to allow the vertical part to extend beyond the coach end. If I were doing it again, I would not bend the top of the etch back, but cut it off, as the join and bend line shows, as Fraser suggested.

The roofs themselves were obtained from Alan Carroll, Dinerth Close, Rhos-on-Sea, Clwyd, LL28 4HQ, whose name & address (as of 1996) appears in the book (pp 11,12), but I do not know if he is still able to supply, its 20-odd years on.

The roof is covered with cartridge paper, which overlaps the brass ends of the coach. Must put the handrails on, one day...

This is the book, in case anyone hasn’t seen it. It’s a mine of useful info, and exemplary modelling.

image.jpg

Season’s Greetings
Simon
 

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Dog Star

Western Thunderer
My railway shed is to be replaced by a new model... actually, by Peter's "New Shed". Today was the day when the "Old Shed" was dismantled prior to moving to a new location so that I can build a new base for the New Shed, see here.

Peter and I were joined by the other half of the Basingstoke & District S7 Area Group, Chris Brown who offers really natty 3D prints of PW fittings and is moving into delicious NS etchings of GWR underframes. We have heard that there is a shortage of scale, walnut, sleepers from the S7G Stores and at some point in today's proceedings I got the impression that Chris was investigating the possibility that the Old Shed might be a suitable source of material for 9'0" sleepers of scale thickness, as here:-

003.JPG

Actually, after more than 25 years in place, all of the screws which held the sides/ends to the floor had corroded to the point where a screwdriver bit just rotated in the screw head with no useful effect. After a cup of tea we came to the conclusion that the only option was to cut through each No. 10 screw (all 20 of them) by use of a hacksaw blade inserted between the bottom member of the side/end and the topside of the floor.

No 7mm sleepers or timbers were produced by the hard work that was expended today.

Thanks Chris, this Old Man could not have achieved anything today without your contribution.

regards. Graham
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
As is the way with our modelling here Peter has started a kit for a new (to us) strain of wagonary - an OTA timber truck for his pending layout which is based on the West Highland Line. The kit was obtained from PRMRP after we had spent a fair while examing a built example on the PRMRP stand at Telford. Now that we have started the kit we find that the instructions leave far too much to the imagination and that is where we are asking for help.

As a start, there are no witness marks on the wagon floor... or words in the instructions... to help when soldering the solebar flange underneath the body - worst case with the solebar pressed against the "curb" rail is solebars set with back to back of 55mm; instinct based solely upon steam-ear wagonary tells me that 55mm is significantly more than the expected circa 42mm. The question here is:-

* what is the distance between solebars of an OTA wagon? (or the OCA wagon which was rebuilt into the OTA).

An internet search has not provided any reference to a source of drawings for this wagon - anyone any ideas?

thank you and regards, Graham
 
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AndyB

Western Thunderer
Do any of the books covering OCAs give a drawing number? If they do I can go looking for it (unfortunately there is no wagon type index to our microfiche deck.....)
Andy
 

daifly

Western Thunderer
Hi Graham
I have a copy of An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 which, over there, author Paul Bartlett claims contains an OCA drawing. I'll scan and email late this afternoon.
Dave
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Do any of the books covering OCAs give a drawing number?
All I know, so far, is that the majority of the OTAs were converted from OCAs and VDAs. The OTAs rebuilt from OCAs retained the running numbers of wagons in the range 112000-112399 whilst the OTAs rebuilt from VDAs retained the running numbers in the ranges 200650-201099 and 210100-210399. This information comes from this useful web site:- LTSV Wagons - Home .
 

AJC

Western Thunderer
Hi Graham
I have a copy of An illustrated history of BR wagons, Volume 1 which, over there, author Paul Bartlett claims contains an OCA drawing. I'll scan and email late this afternoon.
Dave

Well he should know - the timber wagon shown is a 1/420 on page 72 (but this is basically a fitted plate wagon chassis which may not be what you're after). There's an OBA drawing on page 52 however, and so far as I can see the chassis are similar, but air brake wagons are not my particular interest so you'll have to take a look and a view.

Adam
 
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