7mm US model dabblings
- Thread starter Jordan
- Start date
Lancastrian
Western Thunderer
Thanks Chaps 
I was wondering whose it was on the rear of a CP consist.
Ian
I was wondering whose it was on the rear of a CP consist.
Ian
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Here's a question for the Collective, especially those who can design & 3D print.
How small & fine can detail parts be printed? The reason I ask is that I was going to detail a Weaver GP38-2 as a modern(ish) CSX machine, so I shaved off all the class light mouldings. Now, following the purchase of some decals, a Change of Plan means it's going to be a 1980's Soo Line Geep after all - and as such will need class lights again.
Precision Scale do them as details, but at $5 for 2, plus shipping to UK, that's a bit steep. Uncle Jason of this parish has been unable to help beyond the suggestion of very small washers.
Could such a detail be successfully designed and printed? They don't have to work, as they were out of use by then anyway.
This is the plan...
How small & fine can detail parts be printed? The reason I ask is that I was going to detail a Weaver GP38-2 as a modern(ish) CSX machine, so I shaved off all the class light mouldings. Now, following the purchase of some decals, a Change of Plan means it's going to be a 1980's Soo Line Geep after all - and as such will need class lights again.
Precision Scale do them as details, but at $5 for 2, plus shipping to UK, that's a bit steep. Uncle Jason of this parish has been unable to help beyond the suggestion of very small washers.
Could such a detail be successfully designed and printed? They don't have to work, as they were out of use by then anyway.
This is the plan...
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
On the nose, above 'soo line'. There is - or should be - a similar pair on the rear hood end.Because I do not know...which are the lights that your chopped?
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
Well, you got a couple of options that I can see.
A) I can send you the two pairs I have on hand, which I should be able to send at first class mail rates. As far as I can tell from the USPS website, the price for shipping should max at something like two or 3 dollars, with a low end limit of $1.20. Or.....
B) I can send some cad over to somebody on your side that can do a resin print. The cad is already done. I'm not sure what the minimum feature size is for the printers like the Elegoos or Phrozens, somebody else on here could probably tell you. But my impression is that one of those printers should be able to handle the task.
If the printers can manage the gasket shown in red, then you could drill a smaller hole for the center bulb housing and surface mount the part. If the gasket is too thin to print, then you can add depth to the backside. You would then need to use a larger opening in the shell to accept the full diameter of the gasket, and you would need to use car to set it at the right depth. Or you could use a piece of styrene on the backside of the shell as a stop. If you could provide the thickness of the shell, I could modify the cad so that the back side of the light would be flush with the back side of the shell.
A) I can send you the two pairs I have on hand, which I should be able to send at first class mail rates. As far as I can tell from the USPS website, the price for shipping should max at something like two or 3 dollars, with a low end limit of $1.20. Or.....
B) I can send some cad over to somebody on your side that can do a resin print. The cad is already done. I'm not sure what the minimum feature size is for the printers like the Elegoos or Phrozens, somebody else on here could probably tell you. But my impression is that one of those printers should be able to handle the task.
If the printers can manage the gasket shown in red, then you could drill a smaller hole for the center bulb housing and surface mount the part. If the gasket is too thin to print, then you can add depth to the backside. You would then need to use a larger opening in the shell to accept the full diameter of the gasket, and you would need to use car to set it at the right depth. Or you could use a piece of styrene on the backside of the shell as a stop. If you could provide the thickness of the shell, I could modify the cad so that the back side of the light would be flush with the back side of the shell.
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
Hi Jim, sounds good to me!! PM sent!!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
I have a new pro CAD printer on order and it should be able to print most of that, not sure you need the detail on the knurled knobs mind, once painted it'd be lost and the lower handle would be too fragile and might need replicating with very fine wire.
Some of the first items to go into the new printer will be US stuff so more than happy to have a bash at this.
My current hobby printer can probably get close to replicating RTR plastic moulding.
Eitherway, it's worth a punt when the new printer arrives, it'll be a few weeks yet though.
Some of the first items to go into the new printer will be US stuff so more than happy to have a bash at this.
My current hobby printer can probably get close to replicating RTR plastic moulding.
Eitherway, it's worth a punt when the new printer arrives, it'll be a few weeks yet though.
Jordan
Mid-Western Thunderer
I've never seen them that close up!! The moulded ones on Atlas & Weaver locos just seem to have 3 'blobs' to suggest them.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
And that's all you may end up with even with from one of the top end printers, some details are just too small to replicate with the current hardware, and you have to question....if they are even worth the effort........just seem to have 3 'blobs' to suggest them.
Big Train James
Western Thunderer
My methodology when I 3d model is to make things as accurate to the real thing as possible, and then make adjustments as necessary to concede to scale and the practicality of producing the part. There's no attempt at practicality when I'm creating the prime 3d model though. This is mostly because I'm really obsessive about detail and accuracy. Sometimes, however, I push the 3d model because I enjoy the process, and I like to solve the challenge of making the software create the parts I want. Occasionally I lose the battle with the software, but most of the time I win. Some of the trickiest things I've modeled are castings and folded or twisted steel shapes, where things our brains and hands would do seamlessly in real life have to instead be interpreted strictly by the math and numbers in the software.
The reality is you certainly don't need the knurling detail on the knobs. You may not even need the undercut between the head of the screw and the face of the door. Likewise on the color selector lever below the lens, it can either be added with wire after the print is done, or I can fill in underneath to remove the undercut. At the size these things will turn out, removing the undercuts from both areas probably wouldn't make any difference in the visual effect.
A couple of prototype examples:
Here's a capture of the second type of shouldered screw for the lens door. Fun fact, just the knurled screw file is over 14mb. There's an insane number of faces generated by cutting the helical grooves in the surface.
Last edited:
JasonD
Western Thunderer
Hi BTJ, my son is into war-gaming and managed to convince me to go halves on an Elegoo resin printer. If you are relaxed about sharing an STL file I would be pleased to pin him to the wall with his promises to be useful. No that's not fair, I believe(?) he's already done a helmet alternative, starting with a file.
Anyway he's promised me a new thing, I think it's a chocolate bar, called Fusion360, but he wasn't sure I'd like it.
Jason
Anyway he's promised me a new thing, I think it's a chocolate bar, called Fusion360, but he wasn't sure I'd like it.
Jason
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Some me time today, another monster from across the pond to add to the collection, though this one came from a UK (WT resident) owner.
The prototype is the Union Pacific 3 cylinder 4-12-2, called the Union Pacific type oddly
The valve gear a direct copy of Gresleys conjugated levers at the front end and worked well...with high maintenance mind....through out their lives.
Being coal only for their whole lives they were barred from California so it's going to take some research to find them in the same area as SP engines, certainly big SP engines.
The model is a Samhongsa Korean brass import, not sure how many the batch run was, sometimes as low as 15 or as high as 150 so they're not that common which ever figure you take. Build date was 1980 so it's still in good shape 41 years later. As far as I can ascertain there was only one production run.
There's a few areas I'd like to pimp out in due course, certainly the Delta truck needs to go on a weight gaining exercise around the pivot point and the ash pan area bulking out. There were several detail variations during the build and life cycle. I need to cross reference the data specs and find which era the model was designed for and what needs changing to suit my planned era.
I do have another in the post from the US, currently sat in Coventry exchange sorting office, it's taken four days to pack, post, trans-ship the continental US, cross the Atlantic and now it'll probably take two weeks to get to my door
It's a ATSF diesel and I'll post up some shots in due course.
The prototype is the Union Pacific 3 cylinder 4-12-2, called the Union Pacific type oddly
The valve gear a direct copy of Gresleys conjugated levers at the front end and worked well...with high maintenance mind....through out their lives.Being coal only for their whole lives they were barred from California so it's going to take some research to find them in the same area as SP engines, certainly big SP engines.
The model is a Samhongsa Korean brass import, not sure how many the batch run was, sometimes as low as 15 or as high as 150 so they're not that common which ever figure you take. Build date was 1980 so it's still in good shape 41 years later. As far as I can ascertain there was only one production run.
There's a few areas I'd like to pimp out in due course, certainly the Delta truck needs to go on a weight gaining exercise around the pivot point and the ash pan area bulking out. There were several detail variations during the build and life cycle. I need to cross reference the data specs and find which era the model was designed for and what needs changing to suit my planned era.
I do have another in the post from the US, currently sat in Coventry exchange sorting office, it's taken four days to pack, post, trans-ship the continental US, cross the Atlantic and now it'll probably take two weeks to get to my door
It's a ATSF diesel and I'll post up some shots in due course.
Last edited:
PhilH
Western Thunderer
Be gentle with it - its led a relatively sheltered life so far !
Details of the class were published in the Kratville & Ranks book "Motive Power of the Union Pacific" and brief extracts might be of interest
"Built by Alco in 1926-30 to meet the road's demand for a rigid frame locomotive of high tractive effort and low axle loading, the eighty-eight locomotives in this class proved so successful that they were used for thirty years.
The "Union Pacific" type, as they were officially labelled, were designed to haul mile-long freight trains at passenger train speeds. Their 4,330 hp was capable of pulling at fifty miles per hour, the same train that the Mallet compounds they replaced, could struggle with at twenty-five miles per hour. In tests, the 9004, which was the "Ambassador" of the class and travelled many a mile in test runs, lugged 125 cars up a half to 1 per cent grade, on six to seven tons of coal per hour. This meant the 9000's delivered more ton miles at less expense than any other prevailing steam locomotive at the time.
The entire class originally employed the "Gresley'' valve system on the inside (27x31) third cylinder and Walschaerts on the outside (27x32) cylinders. After several years service, eight of the first class, the 9006-9009 and 9011-9014, were rebuilt in the Omaha Shops with a "double" Walschaerts valve gear arrangement, the double links being hung on the right valve gear frame and yoke. For better balance on these locomotives, the air-pumps were mounted on the left running board, creating a "bald-face" appearance on the smoke-box. This "double" valve gear installation was costly and not sufficiently economical over the "Gresley" system to warrant future installations. The "Nines" 30'-8" driver wheelbase was the longest ever applied to a rigid frame steam locomotive. The class had 67" drivers, and in later years, all were equipped with disc main drivers for 50-60 mph operation.
The 9000 arrived at Omaha, April 13, 1926. After several test runs, it and the others of the class were put into the service they were intended for - Cheyenne to Ogden freight pools. The 9500's were assigned to the Oregon Short Line, and after western dieselisation in 1948 were bumped to the Nebraska Division. Eight of the class were originally owned by the OWR&N and numbered 9700-9707. After their long wheelbase had straightened most curves on the Oregon lines between Huntington and Reith faster than section crews could align them, the class was sold to the Union Pacific in September 1929, and renumbered 9055-62 in November of the same year. The 9004 was transferred to the OWR&N and became the 9708. When the other 9700's went to the UP, the 9708 went back also and became the 9004 again. The 9063 to 9077 were transferred to the OSL and became the 9500-14 on that line.
In January, 1929, the thirty-eight 4-12-2's then on the road were in Laramie-Green River and Huntington-Reith, Oregon, freight service. While designed primarily for freight work, many of the class were equipped for dual operation and in emergencies handled passenger runs or assisted in train-heat capacities on Streamliners. They also served as helpers on Sherman Hill and out of Council Bluffs.
After the advent of the famous "Challengers" and "Big Boys," the class became the principal freight power on the Nebraska Division replacing 2-10-2 types. Several were assigned to the Kansas Division also.
Until 1954 the class was intact, except for the 9018, a 1948 boiler explosion victim on the Kansas Division. The fires were drawn on these distinctive locomotives early in 1956, and only one now remains - the 9000 itself, permanently on display at the Fairgrounds in Pomona, California."
Authors Kratville and Bush produced a detailed two volume history of the class entitled "The Union Pacific type" but you would probably have to spend half as much as the model to get both volumes !
This is as near as I got to seeing the 9000 in Los Angeles, a glimpse in front of Big Boy 4014 (since restored to working order). The compound containing the collection of locos was locked when we visited so the photo was taken by poking the camera lens through the chain link fence.
Details of the class were published in the Kratville & Ranks book "Motive Power of the Union Pacific" and brief extracts might be of interest
"Built by Alco in 1926-30 to meet the road's demand for a rigid frame locomotive of high tractive effort and low axle loading, the eighty-eight locomotives in this class proved so successful that they were used for thirty years.
The "Union Pacific" type, as they were officially labelled, were designed to haul mile-long freight trains at passenger train speeds. Their 4,330 hp was capable of pulling at fifty miles per hour, the same train that the Mallet compounds they replaced, could struggle with at twenty-five miles per hour. In tests, the 9004, which was the "Ambassador" of the class and travelled many a mile in test runs, lugged 125 cars up a half to 1 per cent grade, on six to seven tons of coal per hour. This meant the 9000's delivered more ton miles at less expense than any other prevailing steam locomotive at the time.
The entire class originally employed the "Gresley'' valve system on the inside (27x31) third cylinder and Walschaerts on the outside (27x32) cylinders. After several years service, eight of the first class, the 9006-9009 and 9011-9014, were rebuilt in the Omaha Shops with a "double" Walschaerts valve gear arrangement, the double links being hung on the right valve gear frame and yoke. For better balance on these locomotives, the air-pumps were mounted on the left running board, creating a "bald-face" appearance on the smoke-box. This "double" valve gear installation was costly and not sufficiently economical over the "Gresley" system to warrant future installations. The "Nines" 30'-8" driver wheelbase was the longest ever applied to a rigid frame steam locomotive. The class had 67" drivers, and in later years, all were equipped with disc main drivers for 50-60 mph operation.
The 9000 arrived at Omaha, April 13, 1926. After several test runs, it and the others of the class were put into the service they were intended for - Cheyenne to Ogden freight pools. The 9500's were assigned to the Oregon Short Line, and after western dieselisation in 1948 were bumped to the Nebraska Division. Eight of the class were originally owned by the OWR&N and numbered 9700-9707. After their long wheelbase had straightened most curves on the Oregon lines between Huntington and Reith faster than section crews could align them, the class was sold to the Union Pacific in September 1929, and renumbered 9055-62 in November of the same year. The 9004 was transferred to the OWR&N and became the 9708. When the other 9700's went to the UP, the 9708 went back also and became the 9004 again. The 9063 to 9077 were transferred to the OSL and became the 9500-14 on that line.
In January, 1929, the thirty-eight 4-12-2's then on the road were in Laramie-Green River and Huntington-Reith, Oregon, freight service. While designed primarily for freight work, many of the class were equipped for dual operation and in emergencies handled passenger runs or assisted in train-heat capacities on Streamliners. They also served as helpers on Sherman Hill and out of Council Bluffs.
After the advent of the famous "Challengers" and "Big Boys," the class became the principal freight power on the Nebraska Division replacing 2-10-2 types. Several were assigned to the Kansas Division also.
Until 1954 the class was intact, except for the 9018, a 1948 boiler explosion victim on the Kansas Division. The fires were drawn on these distinctive locomotives early in 1956, and only one now remains - the 9000 itself, permanently on display at the Fairgrounds in Pomona, California."
Authors Kratville and Bush produced a detailed two volume history of the class entitled "The Union Pacific type" but you would probably have to spend half as much as the model to get both volumes !
This is as near as I got to seeing the 9000 in Los Angeles, a glimpse in front of Big Boy 4014 (since restored to working order). The compound containing the collection of locos was locked when we visited so the photo was taken by poking the camera lens through the chain link fence.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Phil,
Don't worry, truth is, apart from the Delta truck which can be simply replaced by a single screw, everything else would require a lot of work and detract from it's originality.
The model is coated in lacquer which makes it almost impossible to work on unless it's stripped and after trials with the spare GTEL trucks and fuel tank I had, not an easy task. Cellulose thinners I suspect would be the answer but on the Challenger tender I ended up bead blasting it.
You can still get Vol II of the Union Pacific Type bibles, I managed to pick up a new copy from the UK of all places recently for around £70 but as you say, Vol I goes for anything between £150-300 depending on quality and being as I don't do crap books (I'm rather anal and picky about my books) it's going to be at the upper end....if you can even find one.
It's a big task but if I want a super detailed one I may try and pick up a Kohs model, or, using the two volumes which have a lot of drawings in, as well as some in the UPHS drawing DVD's, make a new model.
However, if I'm going to go to all that effort it'd be better spent on modelling one of the classes not already available in O gauge brass that I'm aware of, like the FTT and TTT classes.
As an aside, the FTT class 8800 - 8809 were also three cylinder engines and were the precursors to the UP Type, Union Pacific wasn't happy and they were rebuilt as 2 cylinder engines (5090 - 5099).
But, Southern Pacific were the first to order engines with this type of valve gear and they ended up with 49 of them. Given the proximity of the build dates and the close similarities of the two classes, which look more like native UP designed engines than SP engines, I'm not sure who ordered came up with the specification first.
One big plus for the UP FTT model is that some were modified to oil burners and worked on Cajon pass piloting and banking trains up there. Cajon pass being one of my broad set of criteria for considering a project.
Don't worry, truth is, apart from the Delta truck which can be simply replaced by a single screw, everything else would require a lot of work and detract from it's originality.
The model is coated in lacquer which makes it almost impossible to work on unless it's stripped and after trials with the spare GTEL trucks and fuel tank I had, not an easy task. Cellulose thinners I suspect would be the answer but on the Challenger tender I ended up bead blasting it.
You can still get Vol II of the Union Pacific Type bibles, I managed to pick up a new copy from the UK of all places recently for around £70 but as you say, Vol I goes for anything between £150-300 depending on quality and being as I don't do crap books (I'm rather anal and picky about my books) it's going to be at the upper end....if you can even find one.
It's a big task but if I want a super detailed one I may try and pick up a Kohs model, or, using the two volumes which have a lot of drawings in, as well as some in the UPHS drawing DVD's, make a new model.
However, if I'm going to go to all that effort it'd be better spent on modelling one of the classes not already available in O gauge brass that I'm aware of, like the FTT and TTT classes.
As an aside, the FTT class 8800 - 8809 were also three cylinder engines and were the precursors to the UP Type, Union Pacific wasn't happy and they were rebuilt as 2 cylinder engines (5090 - 5099).
But, Southern Pacific were the first to order engines with this type of valve gear and they ended up with 49 of them. Given the proximity of the build dates and the close similarities of the two classes, which look more like native UP designed engines than SP engines, I'm not sure who ordered came up with the specification first.
One big plus for the UP FTT model is that some were modified to oil burners and worked on Cajon pass piloting and banking trains up there. Cajon pass being one of my broad set of criteria for considering a project.
Last edited:
PhilH
Western Thunderer
US Hobbies/KTM did the UP 2-10-2 (TTT) in O Scale, representing the first ten of the class built by Baldwin.
Max Gray/KTM did the SP 4-10-2 #5000-5048
and in 2004 Sunset 3rd Rail did painted versions of the SP 4-10-2 in 2 Rail and 3 Rail
According to Kratville & Ranks the UP 4-10-2's were designed by Fetters, CME of the UP, working in conjunction with Alco. However the fact that initially the UP ordered only one, numbered 8000 (later 8809), in 1925 whereas the first SP order also in 1925 was for 15, suggests that the design was mainly due to the builder.
The first UP loco was a coal burner, the following 9 were oil burners and allocated to the Los Angeles & Salt Lake. 8000 was assigned to the LA&SL, converted to oil and renumbered 8809 in 1929. All ten were rebuilt with two cylinders instead of three in 1942 and renumbered 5090-9
Along with 9000, the only surviving UP three cylinder 4-12-2, the collection at Pomona also includes the only remaining SP three cylinder 4-10-2, No.5021.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Now, that's interesting, according to Robert Church (Southern Pacific Ten Coupled), the 4-10-2's were initially designed by Alco who then finalised details with Russell? from the SP.
SP signed for 16 engines on Oct 17 1924 with construction starting six days later.
Fetters could not get the UP board to agree to the new three cylinder arrangement, documentation has it that Fetters was already looking ahead at the 4-12-2 design and the possible use of three cylinders around the same time.
Alco seized the moment and offered to build UP 8000 as a test engine; basically free of charge unless it was successful. UP agreed and ordered on 14th Nov 1924.
Interestingly, 8000 was not built at the same plant as the SP order (which had already begun at the Schenectady) but at the Dunkirk NY plant.
Kratville and Church were life long friends, Kratville being Church's mentor in his early years chasing steam and published Church's first book on SP engines. His books are the equal of Kratville and a must on any SP steam modellers shelf.
I was just down the road from Pomona on my last vacation, but didn't take the time to visit, shameful really but the lure of ACe's and GEVO's was too strong
I did a quick trawl today, and yes there were brass models, more to the point, all the web pages I found were already book marked in my browser, I'd just filed them somewhere important that I'd forgotten about
Utah Railways also ran a handful of TTT engines which were very close to the UP design, certainly had the tell tale UP style cab with angled front faces, I'd need to dig a bit deeper to see if they were linked to the UP orders.
I do enjoy all this research malarky.
SP signed for 16 engines on Oct 17 1924 with construction starting six days later.
Fetters could not get the UP board to agree to the new three cylinder arrangement, documentation has it that Fetters was already looking ahead at the 4-12-2 design and the possible use of three cylinders around the same time.
Alco seized the moment and offered to build UP 8000 as a test engine; basically free of charge unless it was successful. UP agreed and ordered on 14th Nov 1924.
Interestingly, 8000 was not built at the same plant as the SP order (which had already begun at the Schenectady) but at the Dunkirk NY plant.
Kratville and Church were life long friends, Kratville being Church's mentor in his early years chasing steam and published Church's first book on SP engines. His books are the equal of Kratville and a must on any SP steam modellers shelf.
I was just down the road from Pomona on my last vacation, but didn't take the time to visit, shameful really but the lure of ACe's and GEVO's was too strong
I did a quick trawl today, and yes there were brass models, more to the point, all the web pages I found were already book marked in my browser, I'd just filed them somewhere important that I'd forgotten about
Utah Railways also ran a handful of TTT engines which were very close to the UP design, certainly had the tell tale UP style cab with angled front faces, I'd need to dig a bit deeper to see if they were linked to the UP orders.
I do enjoy all this research malarky.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well it finally arrived today, pure exotic indulgent Railroad filth.
Impressive seven days door to door from the US, missed the men in grey too, I don't object to paying excise but it's nice when one slips through .
It's from the first batch OMI did, model is tagged as #7 of 53 in 1995, it looks like I payed for a second edition (plus some) from 2000 which is listed at about 150% more. I actually don't mind as this is well worth it to me.
The model is immaculate, there are a few paint flaws from the factory, and as is usual with Korean brass, some assembly issues, fit, soldering etc but these are minor niggles. It appears to be zero mileage as well so could be a show case queen and the storage box is in very good shape for 26 years old.
It doesn't fit any of my planned US modeling and the 1:1 engine is a small niche run from EMD, the SD75M didn't total many units as Railroads were not keen on the extra HP boosted from the SD70 prime mover.
ATSF 250 was the last engine ordered and delivered for ATSF, it may even have been delivered after the BNSF merger but carried ATSF logos.
The most important thing for me is the model will allow me to scale and cross reference for my SD70 model etchings, they say you should never copy a copy, but OMI are usually pretty good and If I don't know what the real ones measure at, then I won't know my model is wrong will I
Impressive seven days door to door from the US, missed the men in grey too, I don't object to paying excise
but it's nice when one slips through .It's from the first batch OMI did, model is tagged as #7 of 53 in 1995, it looks like I payed for a second edition (plus some) from 2000 which is listed at about 150% more. I actually don't mind as this is well worth it to me.
The model is immaculate, there are a few paint flaws from the factory, and as is usual with Korean brass, some assembly issues, fit, soldering etc but these are minor niggles. It appears to be zero mileage as well so could be a show case queen and the storage box is in very good shape for 26 years old.
It doesn't fit any of my planned US modeling and the 1:1 engine is a small niche run from EMD, the SD75M didn't total many units as Railroads were not keen on the extra HP boosted from the SD70 prime mover.
ATSF 250 was the last engine ordered and delivered for ATSF, it may even have been delivered after the BNSF merger but carried ATSF logos.
The most important thing for me is the model will allow me to scale and cross reference for my SD70 model etchings, they say you should never copy a copy, but OMI are usually pretty good and If I don't know what the real ones measure at, then I won't know my model is wrong will I