4mm Monks: perhaps NOT a Classic Minories - for a grandchild.

Roger Pound said:

Good move to allow that extra space if your grandson elects to have some modern dmu's. CJF's original design was strictly steam age - with which I have no argument I hasten to add - but one must take in to account progress and the likes of the younger enthusiasts.
I must admit to being with Alan on the subject of point control - I have suffered disappointment whilst using both Peco and Seep motors in the past and now tend to use lever control - occasionally wire and tube where the unit is difficult to reach. I do admire your persistence to solve the problems you have encountered - a satisfactory outcome will be hard earned but well deserved .
Cheers,
Roger

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Hi Roger

Your interest, helpful observation and kind words of encouragement are gratefully received once again.

If only my interest in flicking switches wasn’t such an affliction

Many, many thanks,

Jonte

A mixed bag of results for you tonight, fellow Westerners.

The good:

The graph paper covers for the holes dried nice and flat and tight as hoped for, so it was off to purchase half a dozen Peco point motors PL-10.
Managed to wire up all six while the sun shone as rain expected tomorrow. I discovered a short length of twin and earth(?) in the garage, the copper core appearing ideal for bonding the coils on the negative side and providing an ideal surface to solder the wire to:



To avoid any later disappointment like before in terms of non-operative motors, I tested each one in turn: first while held horizontally in hand; second, while attached to a spare point; third, while attached to the points on the board in situ (sited in their holes and poked through the graph paper covers). Good positive responses were thankfully the order of the day. All three tests were indeed passed with flying colours - that said, only two have been tested thus in situ as I will need the patience of a Saint to connect the rest, and as I’m more sinner than Saint, that will just have to wait. Another ‘caveat’ is that I’ve not wired them to the loom on the board yet, although I’m quite satisfied that the CDU is doing its job, but we’ll see.

I replaced the track, yet again, to mark out the holes on the bases of the points for the lugs of the point motors to attach to and the extreme points of the tie bar hole. This was accomplished with a pin and, the slot opened up for the tie bar with a Stanley blade:



Then it was an embuggerance of a job to match the lugs in the point motor with the slots in the point through the paper screen, even though the silhouette of the point could be seen, whilst also trying to persuade the pin to locate in the hole in the tie bar. And this pin is Tom Cruise short. As I say, I’ve accomplished two thus far; I’ve run out of patience for today, so the others will have to wait. Here’s the first one in:



and from underneath (don’t know why I’m showing you this one…):



Still, a bit of progress.

The bad:

I didn’t quite cut one of the holes big enough…….it’s the biggest one that can be seen in the middle of this photo:



It stretches across the width of two points although only one of them isn’t big enough. No option but to cut out graph paper covering and lightly sand down edges before getting the tools out again. Which means after testing the other three in situ, the track will have to come up again. To be fair, it was coming up again anyway which would have been the last time: my intention was to lightly spray over the whole of the track so that it left a silhouette that would act as a guide for the glue. Now I’ll have to do it twice more. Just hope my soldered wires hold out.

My own fault. I must have switched off when marking out around the points prior to cutting. In this case, I must have forgotten to allow for that all important elbow room.

Don’t think I have the attention span to be a railway modeller.

Jonte

Your continued patience and persistence is to be much admired and proves you will triumph in the end. Keep on going, my friend - we are all cheering for you !
Regards,
Roger

Roger Pound said:

Your continued patience and persistence is to be much admired and proves you will triumph in the end. Keep on going, my friend - we are all cheering for you !
Regards,
Roger

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Your kind words of encouragement are most welcome, Roger, however I wish I shared your confidence….

It felt like another uphill struggle today, I’m sad to say.

For starters, I wish now I’d purchased the motors with the extension pin as the shorter version I’m using is beginning to test my patience. As alluded to in my last post, it’s proving a trial lining up both sets of lugs of the motor with the slots in the point AND the pin with the hole in the tie bar, exacerbated by the fact that it’s done through tiny slots in the paper screen, and all while the board is lain on its side; one arm coercing the point into place, the other stretching round and over to hold the point in place. Short of going out and purchasing yet another set of point motors, I’ve adopted the following method: using my only long pin version, I first bend the lugs on both sides inwards slightly, using a spare point as a guide. This helps with fitting as it’s only possible by offering up one set of lugs to one side of the point with the motor at roughly forty degrees to the board, then trying to locate the pin with the tie bar and then finally locating the opposite set of lugs (if only it was that straightforward!). So then, in this fashion, the longer pin version ‘breaks in’ the fittings/slots in the paper screen ready for the real motor, the long pin making it one less obstacle while doing so. Once done, the actual motor is taken and the lugs bent in slightly then offered up to the spare point as a trial fit. Once happy, I go through the same procedure as with the long pin variety. It does make life a little simpler but not a lot; it’s cheaper too than buying a new set and wiring them all up bearing in mind the inclement weather has returned. So, that was that.

Attention then turned to enlarging the hole of one of the points as also mentioned in my last post. Actually, it transpired that the gap adjacent to it was also undersized so that made two that needed broadening. And of course, owing to the lack of real estate below the surface, this entailed moving a number of wires and their blocks and undoing some others before the heavy stuff could begin. Then it was back to noise, smoke and clouds of dust…… But I’m pleased to say that now it’s finally completed and the wires reattached. And of course, the new graph paper cover has been cut to shape and glued across the voids:



Sorry for the poor quality.

As I’m getting (slowly) closer to the milestone of fixing down the track, attention has turned once again to the issue of fixing track at each end of the board. Initial thoughts were to use what little PCB I had left, but I needed more than I thought. So plan b) was to utilise some brass screws I found lurking inside an old ottoman. But try as I might, those darned overhead beams kept getting in the way of the tools, making it difficult to get the screws in straight. So out came the tenon saw; infuriatingly I couldn’t even squeeze its narrow blade twixt parallel beams , so at an angle the cuts just had to be. Screws fixing it to frame which cannot be got at meant that it couldn’t be removed in its entirety, and the protruding bits still proved somewhat of an obastacle:



I’ll make a new one when I’m done.

Unfortunately, I still couldn’t get even my mini drill in so a pilot hole was made as best as possible under the circs, but the ply base - which had been rendered wafer thin when chopping out for the point motor - split anyway in places:



Hopefully it can be tidied. If not, one side at least will have to be cut out and remade from new ply. We’ll see.

If all goes well, the already cut sections of end piece tracks can be soldered to the brass screws. So here we are at the close of play.

I just wish I could enjoy this a little more than I do, Roger, to be honest. Some say we make our own luck and maybe so, but I so wish I could just bump into some once in a while along the way.

Best wishes,

Jonte

Was reintroduced to socialising this weekend fellow Westerners, albeit cautiously; consequently, modelling took an obvious back seat.

Having secured the brass screws at one end of the station throat board, I decided to make a start on the opposite end. Unfortunately, this entailed removal of the fastened down sections at that end, and then relaying and reattaching the wires:



Returning to the opposite end, a repair was needed and completed with filler adjacent to a feed hole:



This was another consequence of those darned overhead beams: as it precluded easy access with the drill, I was forced to drill from underneath rather than from above. Thus the blow-hole which should have been below baseboard and out of sight, was in full view!

I then re-layed the track at this end and couldn’t believe how offline my screws had been:



There were so many datum marks, looked like I chose the wrong ones!

Eventually sorted, but for reasons disclosed earlier, this was easier said than done as there wasn’t much meat left to get a screw in, and the slither that was left was de laminated. Somehow, I got away with it:



The track has since been relaid again to allow the final point motors to be positioned, marked and tested.

I’ve come up with an idea that might make the task a little easier, fingers crossed.

In the meantime, I have domestic chores to attend to, but hopefully will manage to fit in a little modelling time at some point.

I’ll leave you with a picture of some re-testing of the flow of the track at close of play:



Cheers for now,

Jonte

Interest hasn’t yet waned, fellow Westerners, but I didn’t fancy wrestling with these heavyweight baseboards after spending all morning stripping walls, but still, I wanted to progress the build while I could. Thinking a change was as good as a rest, thoughts turned to an impending issue that had to be faced: track and ballast colouring.

This is the look I’m plumping for, taken from a shot of Snowhill station I found on the Warwickshire Railways site:



Immediately, Humbrol colours 77 and slate grey (in typical Humbrol style, slate grey bears little resemblance to what it’s supposed to represent; in this case it’s green - how do I know?) which with other washes will make a suitable starting point. But what is of more concern, is choosing a suitable ‘rust’ colour that won’t overwhelm:



Ordinarily, I’d choose my usual palette as a starting point (towards the 119 colour in this case as far as I can tell from the photo), however, this is Toy Town track and anything too strong or towards the lighter end of the spectrum-even though this is often the case in real life, especially on branch lines - will just draw attention to the fact that these are more girder like in appearance than the fine bands of steel upon which real rolling stock actually runs. So what to do?

Interestingly - well for me - I noted a Humbrol enamel for sale: Track Colour, in my local model shop. From the tone of colour on the lid, I was merely looking at matt black under another number (Matt black I recall is no. 33; this is 131?), but as mentioned previously, often the colour on the lid bears absolutely no resemblance to what’s contained within, so thinking it might serve as a suitable undercoat, I took a pot home with me.

Selecting a suitable test piece from several weeks ago:



I splashed on a fairly thick wash:



Lo and behold, I reckon this had become yet another happy accident, especially for the rail which looks feintly like a dark rust, similar to that in the photo I found and am using as a basis, while being dark enough to impart a finer look to the rail that I alluded to earlier. I think a Matt black over the primer as a base, followed by a wash of track colour of a suitable concentration over the rail, should look more or less the part.

Unfortunately, I’m out of the other colours mentioned for the sleepers and ballast, but I’ll pick some up over the course of the next few days. I do have some Gunmetal though.

Jonte

simond said:

Just in case anyone is wondering what we are blethering on about, TOYAH & ROBERT’S SUNDAY LUNCH — TOYAH

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Considering she's in her 60's she's extremely well preserved, I have been dipping in every now and again for a few months. Nearly time for another fix.

Jonte,

A bit late now, but I got a screwdriver set from Lidl's awhile ago, which instead of the traditional screwdriver it has a ratchet and socket that takes the bits, I have found it very useful in places with restricted access and also those stubborn to get undone screws, with the extra length of the handle, not yet had to resort to a length of pipe over the handle. I have found various bits and bobs of reasonably priced tooling there, it might not be able to stand up to professional use, but for the odd DIY or modelling job it's plenty good enough. The same stuff comes up every now and again, you just need to pop in every now and again and check the bins.

Phil O said:

Jonte,

A bit late now, but I got a screwdriver set from Lidl's awhile ago, which instead of the traditional screwdriver it has a ratchet and socket that takes the bits, I have found it very useful in places with restricted access and also those stubborn to get undone screws, with the extra length of the handle, not yet had to resort to a length of pipe over the handle. I have found various bits and bobs of reasonably priced tooling there, it might not be able to stand up to professional use, but for the odd DIY or modelling job it's plenty good enough. The same stuff comes up every now and again, you just need to pop in every now and again and check the bins.

Click to expand...

Hi Phil, and good to hear from you.

Many thanks for the prompt; I shall keep a keen eye (funnily enough, my wife comes home from shopping there and occasionally says she’s seen something in the bins that might be of use, so I do have my own source ).

I have a case containing items similar to your description and which have proved very handy in the past, but even they were out of their depth on this occasion.

There’s nothing like having the right tool for the job, especially in this case!

Cheers,

Jonte

jonte said:

Interest hasn’t yet waned, fellow Westerners, but I didn’t fancy wrestling with these heavyweight baseboards after spending all morning stripping walls, but still, I wanted to progress the build while I could. Thinking a change was as good as a rest, thoughts turned to an impending issue that had to be faced: track and ballast colouring.

This is the look I’m plumping for, taken from a shot of Snowhill station I found on the Warwickshire Railways site:

View attachment 147239

Immediately, Humbrol colours 77 and slate grey (in typical Humbrol style, slate grey bears little resemblance to what it’s supposed to represent; in this case it’s green - how do I know?) which with other washes will make a suitable starting point. But what is of more concern, is choosing a suitable ‘rust’ colour that won’t overwhelm:

View attachment 147241

Ordinarily, I’d choose my usual palette as a starting point (towards the 119 colour in this case as far as I can tell from the photo), however, this is Toy Town track and anything too strong or towards the lighter end of the spectrum-even though this is often the case in real life, especially on branch lines - will just draw attention to the fact that these are more girder like in appearance than the fine bands of steel upon which real rolling stock actually runs. So what to do?

Interestingly - well for me - I noted a Humbrol enamel for sale: Track Colour, in my local model shop. From the tone of colour on the lid, I was merely looking at matt black under another number (Matt black I recall is no. 33; this is 131?), but as mentioned previously, often the colour on the lid bears absolutely no resemblance to what’s contained within, so thinking it might serve as a suitable undercoat, I took a pot home with me.

Selecting a suitable test piece from several weeks ago:

View attachment 147238

I splashed on a fairly thick wash:

View attachment 147240

Lo and behold, I reckon this had become yet another happy accident, especially for the rail which looks feintly like a dark rust, similar to that in the photo I found and am using as a basis, while being dark enough to impart a finer look to the rail that I alluded to earlier. I think a Matt black over the primer as a base, followed by a wash of track colour of a suitable concentration over the rail, should look more or less the part.

Unfortunately, I’m out of the other colours mentioned for the sleepers and ballast, but I’ll pick some up over the course of the next few days. I do have some Gunmetal though.

Jonte

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Hello @jonte

That's a great grid. A very useful palette. I must admit that rust colour (as it pertains to rails) is one of my bugbears (I think I've just become a demonic Charles Darwin.. ). But like the Queen's workforce, its very subjective.

Cheers

Jan

Lyndhurstman said:

Hello @jonte

That's a great grid. A very useful palette. I must admit that rust colour (as it pertains to rails) is one of my bugbears (I think I've just become a demonic Charles Darwin.. ). But like the Queen's workforce, its very subjective.

Cheers

Jan

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Hi Jan, and a warm welcome as always!

Thanks for the compliment.
Just stuff that I’ve convinced myself looks like various tones of rust over the years, using the blind man on a galloping horse test that’ll do for this modeller (who’s learned to accept his limitations). And of course, it assists my fading memory!

IMHO, colouring/weathering can be both subjective and objective, Jan, although in no way am I advocating that any of this should be prescriptive.

There are many, with a far better eye than me for shades and hues of the colour wheel, who’ll know that they have for a definitive recipe to adequately represent say brake dust or footplate filth or weathered black smoke box in the case of a steam locomotive. They will be happy enough applying it where they know it is usually found and in what concentrations, before blending the whole to what is, for them, a suitably weathered item for the period modelled, and an enjoyable exercise to boot. This is what I’d ‘term’ subjective modelling.

‘Objective’ modelling, on the other hand - again IMHO - and sticking with the theme of colouring/weathering, would be the pursuit of portraying a loco in a suitable state at a particular place and date in time i.e. a photo. You may recall that during my brief dalliance with the Dark Side of our hobby, I was quite taken by the lengths to which modellers subscribing to the ‘Weathering Shop’ would go in pursuit of that definitive appearance. Whilst encouragement and advice was openly offered by the experienced among the community, plaudits were only forthcoming where direct comparison could be made with an accompanying photo.
Needless to say, I submitted nothing for consideration

To reiterate, Jan, this is all my very humble opinion, and although this is only meant to be basically a toy for our enjoyment, I would like to try and maintain my own interest along the way, by seeing if I can actually represent something remotely realistic - or not. And if not, nothing lost (I can console myself by flicking those switches to my heart’s content).

Just to finish (you’ll be glad to hear) this reminded me of a comment made in the editorial of a recent MRJ about some locos which were weathered to such an extent that they wouldn’t realistically have been a ‘serviceable’ locomotive/item of rolling stock or whatever. How the modeller(s) targeted, who had no doubt tried their level best to produce something that they were undoubtedly proud enough to exhibit, could have put this guy firmly in his place if only they’d produced a photo on which they’d based their work

Anyway, off the soap box and back down to Earth as I’ve just discovered that one of my points isn’t closing the switch blades on one side. Think the spring’s knackered At least it was spotted before I’d glued and ballasted it.

Jonte

Pleased that the few remaining point motors have now been tested on the layout and found to be working correctly, fellow Westerners, and that the faulty point of which I made mention in my last post has been replaced with one which itself had been replaced (I realised that the wheel drop was caused by a particular loco rather than the point itself, something I should have cottoned onto before sending off for a replacement. Glad now that I did).

This means that I have reached the stage whereby the track on this board can be sprayed with primer, creating a silhouette once the track is removed which will act as a guide for the glue. Unfortunately, as this will have to be done outside and I’m alone today as my wife has returned to work, it will have to wait a couple of days, and there really is no point bothering family anyway as the rain has now returned (these boards really are stout affairs and require two to carry them).

Before I end today’s post, here are couple of photos of the process I used to fit the remaining point motors, which did indeed make it all a lot simpler as hoped:



I simply placed a lamp behind the board which created a silhouette through the graph paper covering, making it easier to match the lugs and pin of the motor with the slots and hole in the point.

I then returned my attention to the trial piece of track that I coated the other day. Having picked up a couple of tinlets of Humbrol 77 and Slate grey, which is anything but grey as mentioned, I gave the sleepers and ballast a thin wash respectively to emulate the picture of Snowhill in an earlier post:



I’m pleased that initial results are as hoped and that you can also see the subtle difference between the ‘blue’ of the sleepers and ‘green’ of the ballast that I can probably mistakenly see! I’m especially pleased that the blue/green ‘greys’ appear to have brought out the dark brown (rust) colour of the rails that I was so pleased with the other day.

Now it can be subjected to more subtle washes to tone down and blend it into something vaguely resembling the track and ballast in that photo, which will keep me busy until I can get round to priming that track which I mentioned at the beginning of this post.

Cheers for now.

Jonte

Slate grey, in case you’re interested, is one of the Air Ministry specified camouflage colours, chiefly used by the Royal Navy on their aircraft during World War Two. It is definitely on the greenish end of the grey spectrum.

Heather Kay said:

Slate grey, in case you’re interested, is one of the Air Ministry specified camouflage colours, chiefly used by the Royal Navy on their aircraft during World War Two. It is definitely on the greenish end of the grey spectrum.

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Hi Heather.

Now I see why, especially as Humbrol traditionally was aimed at the military modeller.

Many thanks.

Jonte

Thankfully, made some constructive use of time today, fellow Westerners.

An early start saw my wife assisting me to carry the deadweight into the garden before work, where I proceeded to spray the trackwork with primer as mentioned, although I was a little concerned whether the morning dew might hamper its bonding with the rails and sleepers:



Needn’t have worried as it stuck like the ‘proverbial’ when trying to remove from the top rail with turpentine soaked cotton buds:



Then it was removal of most of the track again to leave a silhouette which was mainly the object of the exercise:



This will aid the gluing process. My thanks to @LarryG here for sharing this method.

Certain sections have been left in place to assist with accurate re-siting of the trackwork. They will be dealt with once the main track is stuck backdown and ballasted.

Talking of ballast, I mixed up some proportions from Woodland Scenics ‘Medium’ and Hattons ‘Fine’ grades. In effect, they’re approximately the same size! Never mind.

The proportions:



Half of the ballast will be a 6:1 mix of sand to ‘Fine’; half will be of a 6:2 mix of sand to ‘Fine’; half will be a mix of 6:1:1 sand, ‘Fine’, ‘Medium’.
(And counting….5,4,3…….)

And there we’ll leave it for now, as I want a clear head and fresh start when gluing/ballasting, as knowing me with my poor concentration levels, I’ll end up sticking everything together…..including the tie bars I also want to leave areas clear which will require the addition of sleepers and therefore need to be flat; I will also have to consider the placing of signals, so for now, will keep the ballast as close to the edges of the sleepers as possible. The placing of signal bases on lumpy ballast probably isn’t advisable.

Think I’ll also paint the track while it’s off, which will make it easier to get at.

Many thanks to those members who’ve taken time to read most of this diatribe and been generous enough to ‘like’.

Cheers for now.

Jonte

Jon,

a rattly box was delivered this morning!

I tested the contents with my brand new multimeter, and then with a low voltage ac supply, and they all worked…

One motor had a dry joint, or maybe the tag simply broke off, but the coils all seem to work as expected.

Not sure what to suggest at this point (sorry, bad pun), is it all working with the new motors?

Atb
Simon

simond said:

Jon,

a rattly box was delivered this morning!

I tested the contents with my brand new multimeter, and then with a low voltage ac supply, and they all worked…

One motor had a dry joint, or maybe the tag simply broke off, but the coils all seem to work as expected.

Not sure what to suggest at this point (sorry, bad pun), is it all working with the new motors?

Atb
Simon

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Hi Simon and many thanks for your efforts.

The dry joint wouldn’t have been an issue as they all made some movement (one out of six worked properly, the other five moved the switch blades one way but not the other at first, and then they simply oscillated inside the slack in the hole in the tie bar after that for some reason).

I can only surmise that it was the problem the guy in the video encountered with his and then came up with the jig idea. Whilst it worked for him, it didn’t for me, and probably for others which is perhaps why they’ve adopted a new system of motorisation?

In any case, the new long pin motor variety I purchased for a test was null and voided by the fact the pin was too short owing to the thickness of the board I was using (an inch including underlay plus the height of the tie bar) and that since they increased the thickness of the pin, my Internet purchased extensions wouldn’t fit. I would have made my own but as I was out of stock of the right diameter, and I couldn’t be bothered with another trip to the model shop for something that was unlikely to work anyway because of siting problems as discussed. So I decided to call it a day and went with the shorter variety affixed to the base of the point - which work great

Cutting the holes was a pain but once I’d discovered a workable way to mask the gigantic holes, it wasn’t too bad.

Thanks for letting me know, Simon, and as I mentioned in the accompanying note, feel free to ‘dispose’ of them at your discretion

Best,

Jon

Jon,
I may be completely wrong, but shouldn't the end of the sleepers be fully covered with ballast? I know that this is the rule in Germany, but obviously, my knowledge of UK ballasting is VERY limited. The reason for this practice is that the ballast avoids the sleepers to travel along their axis. Important at high temperatures or in curves.
Michael

michl080 said:

Jon,
I may be completely wrong, but shouldn't the end of the sleepers be fully covered with ballast? I know that this is the rule in Germany, but obviously, my knowledge of UK ballasting is VERY limited. The reason for this practice is that the ballast avoids the sleepers to travel along their axis. Important at high temperatures or in curves.
Michael

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Hi Michael, and thanks for your interest and sound advice.
In short, I wouldn’t really know but from most photos of this era (including the one I’m working from) you would appear to be right

However, IMHO as always, I just feel that where the Peco Streamline rail is too ‘chunky’ and has to be ‘slimmed down’ using darker colours, the sleepers are far too close together and ‘under nourished’ which again have to be enhanced(?). The only way this can be done as far as I can see (and I include those of the Code 75 variety which share the same sized sleeper-age) is to reduce the size and quantity of ballast used in order to address this apparent imbalance. Is it prototypical? Absolutely not but unless we’re using the latest Bullhead variety, or some of the more scale track on the market, I think it an acceptable dodge for what is really just train set stuff, which is all this layout can ever be, I’m afraid, Michael.

That said, there’s a go-to photo from the ‘Disused’ site which inspires and is located in the same area on which I’m basing Monks, and although it’s rare and extreme, it gives me some reassurance:





And when all’s said n done, it’s the best this enthusiastic meddler can come up with

Cheers, Michael, and I hope and trust I can keep your attention and please feel free to keep me along the right track from which I shall spend more time veering

Best,

Jon

Edit:

Hi again, Michael. Just been going through my photo album and found a couple of pix of another trial I carried out with ballast on a scrap piece of track, and which was intended for the track which will be alongside the platforms:



Hopefully, this will illustrate my concerns over the ballast ‘overwhelming’ the track when at the level of the sleepers or just below (and slightly above in one or two cases as this was the look I was thinking of adopting in the station area).

I think you’ll agree that the sleepers just ‘get lost’ in the bigger scheme of things, making the rail look even chunkier, and the overhead view just emphasises the shortcomings IMHO.

I probably haven’t convinced you of any of this, Michael, but that’s okay: we just get back to the subjective, and what looks right to one may not be the case to another. As @simond writes: ‘you say tomato…’

Jon