3D Printing - whether to buy, what to buy and how to use it?

simond

Western Thunderer
Following John Baker’s kind offer to 3D print the tanks for my model, I’m really intrigued by the process & possibilities. John uses an Elegoo printer, I’m interested to know what others have, what their impressions are, etc. I am seriously tempted!

Also, the process, there seems to be a range of resins, different curing, washing solutions, etc, and as usual, the information on the suppliers’ websites is, shall we say, a little biased, and possibly not wholly complete.

I’ve seen a few threads where folks have demonstrated what they’ve made, but I’m not yet entirely clear what’s needed beyond the machine itself.

this seems to give a “starter for 10”

Best Resin 3D Printers in 2021

Lots of resins available on eBay & Amazon, £20-30 per kilo? I’m sure grey “abs like” is fine for 99.99% of what I’d be likely to do, but presumably the other resins are available because they’re useful?

Resolution? Looks like 50 micron is typical, 35 micron is available, it seems that monochrome LCDs are preferred as they allow faster builds. Other thoughts?

UV curing stations? Required? Washing stations? Water? IPA?

What other considerations need to be taken into account? Does it smell? Is it noisy (I guess not, but…)? How much space required? Any disadvantages?

I have access to & can drive Solidworks CAD, so the design side is not an issue for me. I see quite a few folks using Fusion & other freeware. What about slicers? The Mars3 comes with a 1-year subscription to a slicer, which then costs about 50% of the machine cost to renew, which doesn’t enthuse me. Are there compatible free (or permanent licence) slicers available, or is the slicer somehow “tied to” the hardware?

it would be great if folks who have printers can share their experiences, we can add to the WT Knowledge base!

cheers
Simon
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I have no direct experience, but I have been following a couple of chaps over on the Britmodeller forum. They’ve adopted the Elegoo systems, and use the branded resins.

One has been working on an ultimate De Havilland Sea Vixen at 1/72nd scale. He created a kit from scratch, learned CAD and worked out how to print it. The fidelity he was able to reproduce with the printer was amazing. If I can find the thread - be warned, it’s lengthy - I’ll post a link.

The other, following the first's lead, has created a 1/48th scale Westland Wapiti. Again, a stunning result, and I’ll find the thread for you if there’s interest.

I think my point, speaking as a complete Luddite where such technology is concerned, is I have been very impressed with what the Elegoo printers are capable of, at not very much money. The quality is up there with what professional high-end 3D technology was doing only a few years ago.

The other thing I’ve learned is cleaning and curing the resin is an art form in its own right.
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
Right, first link is to the Sea Vixen megathread. It’s taken me ages to get from the start where assessment of existing plastic kits turned into "sod it, let’s start from scratch and make my own kit". Beware, lots of banter, but I’m dropping you in at a point where test prints of undercarriage and wing fold mechanisms are being put together as proof of concept.

Sea Vixen FAW.1x2

The second thread is shorter, so I’m dropping you in at the start.

28 Sqn Westland Wapiti (1/48) scratch 'n' print
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
This is a thread I'd like to follow, but I didn't get very far.
So - for anyone like me with little knowledge of the process and who is wondering what on earth a slicer was in this application, here is an explanation:

A slicer is a program that converts digital 3D models into printing instructions for a given 3D printer to build an object. In addition to the model itself, the instructions contain user-entered 3D printing parameters, such as layer height, speed, and support structure settings.​

But perhaps the rest of you already knew.....
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Sorry, Tony…

Brief overview of CNC process:

1 create 3D model, usually on CAD, though you can scan as Alan Buttler does.

2 scale model as required

3 create instructions for the machine - usually “GCODE”, the actual instruction set will depend on the process, but in additive manufacturing (you start with an empty workspace and create the thing within it” the “slicer” takes your 3D model and, like Mothers’ Pride, creates slices, very thin slices, and then creates an instruction set to make each slice. If it’s an FDM printer, this is very like a milling machine, the nozzle will move in X & Y turning on and off as required to “draw” the required slice of the model on the bed, or on top of previous slices. In resin printers, each slice is created as a 2D “snapshot” of that particular part of the model. As each slice is finished, the bed moves in Z to get ready for the next slice.

subtractive manufacturing is what we know of as milling, turning, or doing a Michaelangelo, starting with a block (or cast/forged/drawn lump) of material, and removing everything that isn’t the finished article. Again, Gcode is the normal instruction language, telling the cutter what to do, where to move, how fast to go, etc. Again there are programs which take a CAD model, and convert it, more or less automatically, into a gcode set that the machine tool can understand. We have one for our milling machine at work, which is pretty good, but we found that it was a) expensive, and b) quite hard work to use, so we currently program the lathes using the gcode editor supplied by FANUC whose controllers we use. There are some free entry-level / hobby programs available, but again, I’ve had limited success with them, and tend to program by hand.

4 postprocess - clean/ degrease / cure / wash / deburr / heat treat, etc in combination as required.

same approach for silhouette cutters, cam grinders, PCB manufacture, etc.

atb
Simon
 

Spike

Western Thunderer
Simon,

I have purchased the anycubic photon mono x and the accompanying large washer and dryer.
both of which I purchased from 3d Jake.

The reason for this selection was a friend of my dad and I offered to print some chairs, I took the opportunity to ask for a print of a chimney stack that I had previously had printed by shapeways, therefore allowing a comparison of the two products.

The quality from the Anycubic printer was very good and I struggled to see much difference between it and what I got from shapeways fine detail plastic. Whilst I acknowledge that my sample size is a brick chimney stack, the friend also showed what he had printed for himself and his local club. He had printed springs for a black 5 which looked impressive.

The total cost for the setup was around £600, I bought during Black Friday and had been watching the price for a while. When I costed it earlier this year it was around £800.

regards
Peter
 

Bill Bedford

Western Thunderer
Resin printers are messy, so really need a dedicated space to house the printer and all the ancillary equipment. This should not be in full sunlight.

For commercial prints, it's calculated that at least half the cost is due to postprocessing, ie cleaning, removing supports and making good the print.
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
Sorry, Tony…

Brief overview of CNC process:

1 create 3D model, usually on CAD, though you can scan as Alan Buttler does.

.......

No problem - just trying to catch up technically, and thought it might help one or two others to hang on for the ride!

As an aside I understand, from what both Alan Butler and Arun Sharma have advised, that the scanning process gives rise to significant work in cleaning-up of scan image files before they are suitable for use. That seems to be another art in itself.
 

GrahameH

Western Thunderer
Good morning Simon,

Like you I am considering this form of printing for useful additions to what I model.

A couple of months ago I took my first steps by using Tinkercad which is a free and simple 3D software design package online. The slicer programme called LycheeSlicer was downloaded free from the web and my first baby steps produced this -

Screen Shot 2021-08-30 at 13.26.20.png Screen Shot 2021-09-01 at 15.35.34.jpg

From the first design I had a friend print the Herring body which turned out thus -

Herring print.jpg

It was only done as a trial but he told me that the drawing and slicing file I had sent him was fine to print which has encouraged me.

I have also been ( sadly ) watching this chaps channel which I feel is done by a guy who seems to know about these things and gives an honest opinion about the various printers available.

https://www.youtube.com/c/VegOilGuy/videos

ATB
Merry festives and AHNY

G
 

garethashenden

Western Thunderer
I have an Anycubic Mono along with their Wash & Cure station. I spent a few years with an Anycubic Photon before that. I find the wash & cure to be a super valuable accessory. Before I had it I was dunking the prints in ipa and swishing them around. It kinda worked, but I had trouble getting all the extra resin off. That problem has been solved by the wash & cure.
For a slicer I use Chitubox. All-in-one SLA/DLP/LCD Slicer-All-in-one SLA/DLP/LCD Slicer丨3D printing preprocessing software The stock Photon slicer is a version of this but less powerful. It’s free too.
 

GrahamMc

Western Thunderer
I found this image and text helpful, from the Britmodeller forum. It might give you some idea of the difference in resolutions between 2k and 4k printing. The contributor was 'Twobad' on November 7th and this is the link to the thread.

'The pictures going clockwise from top left are:
Phrozen 4k at 35um, print bureau at 50um, cheapskate's stamp, another 35um print cleaned too vigorously resulting in some detail being brushed off.'

2k - 4k.jpg

It is of course comparing a 2k commercial print with a 4k modellers print but it might help.
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Current offers
https://www.3djake.uk/anycubic-3d-printer-and-accessories/photon-mono-x £454
https://www.3djake.uk/anycubic-3d-printer-and-accessories/photon-mono-4k £273
https://www.3djake.uk/anycubic-3d-printer-and-accessories/wash-cure-plus £217


banggood Elegoo Mars3, £297+£6 shipping from China
https://www.3djake.uk/elegoo/mars-3...AXxisPea_-X8TJb7x0n1itbYccj_JJR0aAvhrEALw_wcB Or £318 from 3D Jake. Or £350 from Amazon

Elegoo wash & cure
https://www.3djake.uk/elegoo/mercury-plus £101. Or £115 from Amazon

the Mars3 doesn’t have wifi
The Anycubic mono X has wifi &, 192 x 120 x 245 mm, vs the mono 4K which is non wifi. 132 x 80 x 165 mm

all three are 35 micron

looks like 3D Jake is the logical source.

I’m interested by Bill’s comments about mess & space. Any other thoughts?

I don’t have a space that I can dedicate to it, though I can set it up in the garage (cold) or at work (not convenient).

whilst I’m attracted by what can ge done, I’m rather concerned they I’d be biting off more than I can chew.

atb
Simon
 

GrahamMc

Western Thunderer
I don’t have a space that I can dedicate to it, though I can set it up in the garage (cold) or at work (not convenient).

Simon

A quote from another forum, the printer was an Anycubic.
'My printer is out in my garage, which has been very hot throughout the summer 20-30 degrees easily and retains the heat overnight. Since it's got cold, it's been going down below 10 degrees, which has led to multiple failed prints.'

It's something you'll need to look into.
I was intending to buy one but I'm not sure whether or not I'm going to get enough use out of one to justify a 4k version, my preferred option now I've been able to compare 2k and 4k in the post above.
Hope the temperature thing helps.
Graham.
 

garethashenden

Western Thunderer
What are you planning on printing? I can print 4mm wagons with my Anycubic Photon Mono, I might be able to print a 7mm wagon, I’m not sure. If I wanted to print coaches I know I’d need the Mono X. Obviously prints can be angled to get longer things to print, but that can get tricky.
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Simon,

Peter (aka Spike) sought advice from Dave Sapp of the Yeovil Model Railway Group. We visited Dave in August for a discussion and a demonstration. Dave told us that the success rate of printing was influenced by the ambient temperature of the area around the printer, Dave uses a space heater to achieve a temperature in the region 20-25 degrees C. As Dave has his printer in a stand-alone garage he has to be concerned about temperature... on the other side of the balance Dave does not have to worry about the stink of the resin.

Peter has his printer in a (typical) small bed / room with a central heating radiator - we do not expect to have temperature problems if we use the printer from lunch to tea-time. We have a vapour extraction unit for use with the airbrush and there is a good chance that the unit can extract the fumes from the 3D-Jake grey resin.

regards, Graham
 

michael080

Western Thunderer
i have been lucky enough to decide which printer to buy for my company. There are obviously other things to consider compared to a private purchase.
We bought a Formlabs SLA printer that has some advantages compared with hobbyist products. It is
-- fully enclosed, so no fumes
-- has its own heater
-- is using a laser with a galvanometer system rather than a LED with LCD screen
-- comes with its own slicer software
-- comes with resins that are automatically into the software. No playing around to get the right parameters.
However, the price is roughly 5 times higher than a hobbyist printer.
I think the system is too expensive for non professional use, but f you have very deep pockets...

Formlabs offers a washing station that is simply unuseable.
It requires huge amounts (3-4l) of Isopropanol (IP), it is not correctly sealed so that the IP evaporates and its small paddle is not efficient.

I stopped using it and wash all parts in a beaker filled with IP that is standing in an ultrasonic bath. All parts are clean in 3-4 minutes.
The IP can be reused many times.
After this initial cleaning, I flush the part with clean unused IP to remove the "dirty" IP from the surface. Using a washing bottle (should it be called spray bottle?) I clean all holes from uncured resin.
Next step is to dry the part with compressed air.

We are using the Formlabs curing station which is nice and simple to use. It has an integrated heater that bakes the part at 60C for an hour. A small turning table helps to have the part fixes from all sides.


Michael
 

simond

Western Thunderer
Thank you all.

so, the learning curve continues:

The base machine is easy to compare with others, there is a range of price points.
Hobby unit in range £300-£500, 35micron is not massively more expensive than 50.
Post processing is necessary, washing and curing. Individual units, and combined units are available.
An IPA bath in an ultrasonic cleaner is a useful approach. Squirty wash bottle for holes, ditto.
There’s a degree of clutter & mess involved & the resin does smell during printing. It probably is not going to be welcome in the lounge.
The printer does need to be kept warm. It’s probably not going to work in the garage.

Turning to Gareth’s question, I don’t really know. I’m happy with CAD, so confident I can (eventually!) model anything I can get dimensioned drawings of, and I can imagine loco and rolling stock parts would be high on the list. Detail parts for the layout too. I think it is possible to download various animals, so horses, sheep & cattle for scenic effect, I looked at kits for signal box interior details & thought I could probably print that. I’m sure there are opportunities to make all sorts of stuff. And it would be fun.

That said, I guess I could buy all the stuff I’d like to print for less than the cost of the printer…possibly twice over.
 
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