7mm Stanier 3P 2-6-2

Discussion in 'Area 51' started by P A D, 14 December 2019.

  1. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Having completed the GCR 11F my intention was to crack on with 1:35 DR BR86 plastic kit. However, during one of my occasional visits to RMWeb, I spotted a 7mm Stanier 3P built by Mike Edge. He's developing a 4mm kit to add to the Judith Edge range and on the back of that, he knocked up a set of etchings in 7mm, to build one for a customer I believe. I've wanted one of these for a long time but with no kits available, I asked Mike if he would be making it available as a kit, but he said not, with his focus being to get the 4mm one to market . :'(

    However, I then received a PM from Mike offering me a second set of spare etchings at a very reasonable price. After some deliberations as to what castings I would need to source and what I had in the spares box, I accepted his offer. He's not too far from Warren, so after dropping off the 11F, I nipped over to Barnsley and picked up the etchings.

    The body etch.

    There's some half etch detail as well as lots of rivets to punch out, as can be seen on the reverse side.
    And the frames etc.

    Mike also included a resin casting for the smokebox door, which should fettle up nicely.

    He missed off the boiler, expansion link brackets and balance weights from the frets, but has provided printed templates to assist in making these, so no bother. He has also provided some scale drawings from his cad file with side, top, front and rear elevations.

    I decided to get the coupling rods done first as these needed modifying to articulate them. Mike built his with his usual compensation system so I don't know how that would work with rigid coupling rods and never thought to ask him. Here are the parts for the right hand side. Top is the rear laminate, then the outer laminate and below that the overlays for the middle and rear bosses. The front boss has a recess for extra clearance and no boss overlay .

    The first job was to separate the dummy joint overlay from the centre boss overlay.

    Then the overlay was soldered to the centre boss. 20191214_112405.jpg

    I then separated the rod at the joint with the piercing saw and tidied up. The joint overlay was then soldered to the rear rod and the rear rod laminate separated behind the joint. 20191214_112332.jpg

    I should point out that before any cuts were made, the rods were used to set up the spacing on the chassis jig. Here are the front rod laminates in the jig lined up for soldering. After tack soldering at either end the rod was clamped in the vice for soldering all round.

    The front and back laminates plus the boss overlay on the rear rod were lined as before, tack soldered on the jig then completed in the vice. Here are the rods after joining. The parts for the left hand coupling rod are below

    The completed right hand rod with the "corks" added from 0.5mm brass rod.

    The procedure for the left hand side is just a mirror image of the right, but you have to keep your brain engaged so that the cuts are made in the right place. The left hand rod is now soldered up but still needs the final fettling and the corks adding.

    It's not quite as exotic as the BR86, but you don't see many of them in 7mm, so I moved it to the front of the queue. I know they were poor performers but like the bigger Stanier 2-6-4s, were very handsome engines. I build the Chowbent Fowler version many years ago for my brother, so it will make a nice comparison. Roger Scanlon built a Stanier one from the Chowbent kit and Mickoo posted a very useful image of the inside of the cab rear, so they will be very helpful as well.

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  2. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    Lovely little engines, but seeing them meant a trip over to Manchester Central where they worked out over the Cheshire Lines. I never saw one in Oldham (where I lived). I am looking forward to seeing this develop.
  3. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    This'll be particularly interesting, Peter, as from all you say this is a direct blow up to 7mm from 4mm masters. Doubtless you are anticipating some extra work to make the tabs and slots as well as the pre-etched holes perform to your (high:)) standards.

    Nice job with the coupling rods......

  4. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Thanks Brian.

    Yes it's been scaled up from 4mm. Mike has highlighted some areas that need correcting, but I don't expect any major issues with those. Extra work is all part of the fun when you're building for yourself. Not quite the same when building a commission where you want everything to fit like a glove. Here's one of Mike's images from RMWeb and as you can see it does look the part. Looking closer at some of the other images in his thread, I think he may have pivoted the coupling rods on the middle crank pin, but I could be wrong. In my experience this method wears grooves in the brass bush.

    Mike used 10 thou brass for the boiler, which is easy to roll, but I've got some 10 and 15 thou nickel silver from Eileen's and will give that a go first. I'd rather keep it all NS if I can, but of course the detail parts will be in whatever I have in the spares box or can source. I've got quite a few Laurie Griffin castings that came with the Stanier 2 6 4 that I did not use, preferring the David Andrew's ones, plus a number of castings from the MOK 4MT that I can use. The slide bars and crosshead in the "kit" are etched and I will give these a go as well, but I've got a set of Griffin castings to fall back on if needed.

    As far as I know, I never saw a 3P in the flesh, but from seeing them in various books and magazines over the years have always fancied one. To be honest, other than Black 5s and Fairburn tanks, I don't recall seeing many prototypes from when steam was still extant on BR. I was always impressed by steam locos growing up, but was never a spotter.

  5. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Here's one I made earlier.......

    img962 TM3A Film ID53 40157.  Empty Stock.  Euston.  FINAL. Approved.jpg

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  6. adrian

    adrian Flying Squad

    IMHO this is one of the problems with the nickel silver supply to the model railway community, not just Eileen's but MetalSmith, and others all seem to supply half-hard nickel. This is not really suitable for rolling boilers, tender flares etc because it is too springy so I really think you'll struggle to be honest.

    When my Dad sourced nickel-silver sheet for his scratch building he always took the trouble to get soft grade n/s - this is used in silversmithing and spinning because of it's cold working properties. I believe this was the NS106 variety. It is so much easier to work - I could bend a belpaire firebox with a couple of silver steel bars and finger pressure.

    The half-hard is perfect for flat surfaces, footplates, cabs, steps etc but anything requiring cold forming, boilers, fireboxes, tender flares etc then you really need to get soft grade n/s. I found this site who can supply both half-hard and soft varieties.
    Nickel Silver
    I've emailed them a query about supplying a sheet of 0.4mm soft n/s. If they come back with a decent price for a sheet I'll let you know and I'll send you a sample so you can see the difference.
  7. mickoo

    mickoo Western Thunderer

    Alternatively, go for a gauge lower, rolling boilers and fireboxes in 0.4 is near impossible, reduce to 0.25 and it's so much easier.

    Once rolled a 10 thou boiler is certainly strong enough for our needs, mine anyway, even in 7 mm; the MOK Ivatt 4MT firebox is half etch 18 thou and once fitted to the cab and cast throat plate is also very sturdy.

    Even then, as Adrian notes, it's still a springy material, I wasn't aware there were alternatives though I'm not sure etches provide these alternative materials, you get what we've got sir!
    Last edited: 15 December 2019
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  8. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Adrian,
    Many thanks for the head up on the rolling properties of nickel silver. Interesting then that Eileen's also sell hard NS, which I assume would be even more difficult to form, so I wonder to what use it is put. I'll give it a go at rolling the boiler with the 10 thou half hard, but it would be interesting to see a sample of the soft grade if you get some.

    I've got a decent sized blow torch so I could also try annealing as well.

    Nice photo. It would be useful to see any you may have that show the injectors, as I don't know what type they were fitted with or how they were fitted.

    BR Tony likes this.
  9. Sandy Harper

    Sandy Harper Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter,
    One I made earlier, from a N/S etch drawn by Mike Williams (College Models, now with Walsworth Models). The kit is being reworked, some missing castings re-mastered and should be available some time in 2020. Its predecessor, from the Fowler stable, is also receiving the same treatment and should be available at the same time.
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  10. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    I use 10 thou NS, from Metalsmith, for boilers, footplates and tender flares. I have never had to anneal it for boilers even down as small as 19mm dia. However for the flared coping on tender sides, which on my models is a separate part from the side, I heat it to red and let it cool naturally before forming over a custom made former.

  11. Yorkshire Dave

    Yorkshire Dave Western Thunderer

    Where was this taken - Euston? Only guessing as the tracks appear to climb quite sharply under the bridge.
  12. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Hi Peter.

    Sorry - this is the only one I have at the moment. I'll have another load of negs to scan after Christmas and there's every possibility that there'll be one of these in there somewhere, but it may be a little late for you.

  13. oldravendale

    oldravendale Western Thunderer

    Definitely Euston, Dave. At the moment I can't give a date - I hope I'll be able to do so later when I get to research data on all these photos - but close to 14th April 1962. That all fits quite nicely, as it was a Willesden loco and not withdrawn until December 1962.

  14. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    No worries Brian.

    Thanks Sandy I found your thread with your 3P build. I've also found the links to some photos showing the ejectors, posted by Duncan Chandler, so thanks to him also. He knocked up a quite nice drawing on RMWeb, of which he kindly sent me a higher res copy. All grist to the mill.

    Thanks also to Mick and Ian for their comments - very helpful.
    Last edited: 18 December 2019
  15. Duncan Chandler

    Duncan Chandler Active Member

    If you need more detail, shots let me know. I will send over the cab photos as well

    best wishes
  16. P A D

    P A D Western Thunderer

    Hi Duncan,
    Cab shots would be great.
    Many thanks,
  17. Dikitriki

    Dikitriki Flying Squad

    Any chance of putting the photos on here Duncan?

    I have a Chowbent example to do sometime, and am short of references.


  18. Ian@StEnochs

    Ian@StEnochs Western Thunderer

    Me too!

  19. LarryG

    LarryG Western Thunderer

    I've scanned this off a rather poor contact print that I took of 40097 at Manchester Central in May 1961. A friend was also filming this on 16mm cine (he also filmed my wedding the same month ~ if only I had access to both clips today!). Note the 'Peak' backing down to its London train...

    WEB Stanier 3MT A.jpg

    BR mixed traffic livery as applied to the LMS Stanier 2-6-2T's. It is awaiting a totem...
    WEB Stanier 3MT B.jpg
    Photo R.H.G.Simpson
  20. Duncan Chandler

    Duncan Chandler Active Member

    Hi all,

    So here are some of the things previously posted on RMweb. The spreadsheet is from my research on the class. It is not complete as it does not have a listing of those with strengthening strips across the back of the upper bunker, which only seem to be in BR days. Also attached are the 2 cab views seen.

    Attached Files:

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