1/32 Future of 1/32 spun out of NFS brake van thread

[David Halfpenny]

As you imply, Steph, brake van models are disproportionately significant because it is they that make a train a possible. Yet manufacturers have shied away from brake vans, for fear sales of a very company-specific vehicle won't pay for high tooling costs.

Roger has broken out of that straitjacket by taking the bold step of using relatively low investment production methods to produce a much simplified impression of a generic brake van. It has proved popular because it makes possible a 'near enough' train to go behind a 1:32 locomotive on G1MRA Standard track, and most of his customers will be perfectly satisfied with how it looks from a distance.

May I ask you (and indeed anyone) a hypothetical question?
If you could make up an accurate 1:32 scale train, with what wheels would you fit it, and where would you run it, please?

​

David

PS Steph, could you be distracted by these G3 vehicles, photographed at the 16mm AGM this April?

Korzilius:

Slaters:

Williams:

 

[Dikitriki]

May I ask you (and indeed anyone) a hypothetical question?
If you could make up an accurate 1:32 scale train, with what wheels would you fit it, and where would you run it, please?

My opinion only......
I think you have to take a longer term view, and ask what is going to happen to get people into G1 and in particular 1/32. The answer to that will be lower price, higher quality RTR. And it can happen, as is now the case in O gauge where the likes of Dapol. Minerva, Little Loco Company have re-written the price/quality equations.

So for wheel standards, whether you like it or not, they are going to be set by the popular manufacturers, and that means Aster, Finescale Brass, Marklin, Kiss, KM1 (and others who I am not so familiar with) which means 6mm wheels, 40mm BTB, 1.5mm flanges - Standard G1 in other words.

To answer your specific questions. I would fit the best looking steel tyred wheels that fit the standard (and I don't yet know what supplier makes them as haven't looked at UK goods stock yet), and run them on my garden railway.

Richard

 

[Simon]

means 6mm wheels, 40mm BTB, 1.5mm flanges - Standard G1 in other words.

I can't really subscribe to this view of the future, and it surely isn't where a 1/32 modelling group should be aiming?

Richard, I do sometimes wonder whether you haven't been a bit "knobbled" in your thinking by the G1MRA establishment, given your fine modelling "pedigree" and abilities.

I'm not really interested in standard standard, but from experience/observation, it demonstrably doesn't need the deep flange excess tyre width and even btb that you mention, this is pure old school "G1MRAthink" at its worst. Slaters fine come in at 41mm btw with 1mm flange and is pretty useable and I also think you'll find that a fair bit of Kiss and Continental stuff does rather better in the wheel department than the lamentable "standard standard".

Different discussion I know, but this is the nettle that G1MRA really ought to be grasping for their own good and survival, but there's precious little sign that they are. In fact they appear to have selected full reverse gear, shut their eyes tight and pressed hard on the accelerator, judging from the last couple of newsletters - undoing years of hard work by numerous people better than me.

You'd struggle to make it all up

Simon

 

[Dikitriki]

Simon,

I agree entirely with you. I find myself in exactly the same position as I was in 7mm scale - forced down a road because of my starting point.

Between the members of the Heyside group we have a sizeable collection of and investment in G1, locomotives in particular. None of us, including myself, is going to change the wheels for finer profiles. As with Heyside we had a 'group' decision to make, and that was we work with the wheel profile we are faced with and build the track to suit.

I want to run Aster locomotives amongst the others above, but far more important, I want to be able to have others run their stock on my railway, and that means Standard G1. Particularly as I wish to run 45mm NG too which has the same standards.

But importantly, I don't see this as a problem, and I think it must be embraced by any nascent 1/32 ginger group. The Kiss/KM1/Hubner stuff looks magnificent, and the fact that the wheels are not as fine scale as they could be I can live with. It is in truth no different in detail terms from 7mm scale (standard v S7)- in fact it's easier because there isn't a different gauge for Scale 1/32.

I'm not trying to do what you are, but if 1/32 is going to get anywhere with trade support, it has to cover both aspects, the entry level, fit all RTR and the dead scale. It's all 1/32, just the wheels are different. OK, I can see the hypocracy in that, but my pragmatic side says it has to be.

In all this, I haven't yet considered what the best track standards are to fit the wheel standards (like 31.5mm v 32mm in 7mm scale), so I might be able to make the track look very much better without having to change wheels.

Richard

 

[David Halfpenny]

I have in mind a 1:32 Alliance that both builds up trade support and allows of finescale modelling.
I don't see this as Lowest Common Denominator, but Having Cake and Eating it:
- if we focus on trade support alone, we'll just get handed more of Accucraft's double-sized nuts, NFS's huge wheels, Gauge 1 Model Co's missing 4" of wagon, and various kit manufacturers' 10mm scale castings.
- if we focus on museum quality alone, we remain a Scratchbuilder Scale, perhaps helping each other by crowd-funding limited batches of very accurate common components.

I haven't yet considered what the best track standards are to fit the wheel standards

Richard, may I refer you back to: 1/32 - Promoting Better Wheels and Track ?

In a nutshell, one can refine the flangeways at crossings significantly and still run both Standard and 'finer' wheels. It's not finescale, it won't take Scale wheels in a Facing direction, and the compromise is that the check rail flangeway still yawns. But it will stop wheels dropping into the crossing gaps and will take all wheels in a Trailing direction.
​

David

 

[Neil]

Interesting points raised. Looking at the developments in other gauges it seems as though there has to be a reasonable number of individuals engaged in working at the easiest common denominator before the 'scale' version properly takes hold. Ok I suppose that S scale might be an exception but I gather most wouldn't want their shirt to be quite as hairy.

 

[David Halfpenny]

Chris Arundell tells me the Utility Vans have 34.5mm wheels, which scale 3' 7 1/2" and are the wheels fitted under NFS Coaches. These wheels are advertised separately on the NFS Parts page: Northern Fine Scale: Welcome / Home Page (added 6 May DH)

So we are going to get suitable wheels in the box with those vehicles, and presumably with future 1/32 coaching stock. Even if Roger has to Brexit-up the price, they'd still be good value for scatchbuilders.

​

It gets better: Northern Finescale tyres are almost G1MRA Fine! (Well, the Wagon wheels are - I'll check the UV wheels at The Fosse.)
The differences between the two are:
- slightly deeper flange,
- taper on back of wheel, hidden from view,
- NFS tyres are very fine, leaving no scope for turning the diameter down.
If one wanted a complete match with (say) Slaters Fine profile, a 'tickle' on the lathe will do it. And as Simon says:

Slaters fine come in at 41mm btw with 1mm flange and is pretty useable

Moreover, it would be easy to convert the tyres to the various Finescales - though for Finescale the axles would also need attention to widen the back-to-back.

(Hammer out the steel rod, saw the moulded axle and insert spacer(s), re-cement the moulding and hammer in a new (longer) steel rod - with clean ends.)
​

It's possible that NFS can help upgrade the G1MR Co Mark 1 coaches - though since Chris doesn't have stock (he's never been asked for any), it's not easy to check instantly.

To give an impression of the NFS wheels for those who don't have any at home, here's a photo showing (left to right) a Slaters Fine 3' 1" 1/32 scale wagon wheel, a NFS wagon wheel which is 3' 2.5" in 10mm scale, and a Roxey dead-scale 3' 7" coach wheel:

View attachment 66458


David

 

[David Halfpenny]

this is the nettle that G1MRA really ought to be grasping for their own good and survival,

I'd like to be clear about what exactly the crucial nettle is, Simon, because it's hard to explain to anyone who doesn't see a problem.

1) The appearance of wheels could be refined and still work as per Slaters Fine.

G1MRA have already added refinement to their Tolerances.​

BUT:
2) Whatever one does to the wheels, the track doesn't satisfy everyone.

G1MRA has published G1MRA Fine for 10mm and ScaleOne32 for 1/32.​

AND:
3) Even Standard wheels gradually destroy Standard crossings (and refined wheels like Slaters Fine make it worse).

G1MRA has already added a Tolerance to crossing flangeways specifically to tackle this blight.
​

To each of those three points, I'd like to know what more can an Association (as opposed to a Governing Body) actually do?

Specific answers would be especially helpful right now, because the present G1MRA Committee has at least grasped the resulting polarisation (whether or not the Editor has) and is currently putting out olive branches for us to grasp.
​

As you've said, you've got a lot on at the moment, so it happens to be me that's running with it, but I'm more than happy to tap your brains and experience.

David

 

[Simon]

There are two issues for "Standard Standard" as I see it.

1. Appearance - the wheels detract from the upperworks, the flangeways look crude and "toylike".

2. Function - the standard fails an essential relationship in that tyre width does not exceed twice the flangeway, resulting in the wheels dropping into the crossing. (Wheel width 6mm, flangeway 3mm)

"Tolerances" are fine, but aren't really useful in this instance, what is needed is a figure to aim for. In fact refinement to their tolerances strikes me as nonsensical as a tolerance is a variation around a mean figure, which is clearly not what is being talked about or being put forward here. As I understand it, this awkward wording was a way of potentially improving things by Richard Donovan (then technical secretary of G1MRA) without "upsetting the dinosaurs". Richard is one of the people who have tried and "retired hurt" I think.

So, what's needed is some guidance, nay leadership from G1MRA.

I don't use the "standard standard" and some of this stuff wants to be empirically tested against what's running but here's a starting point:

Make the across checks figure 40mm max instead of 39.5mm max

Reduce gauge through crossing to 44mm

Flangeways are now 2mm, give or take.

Define your standard wheel at G1F profile 41mm btb (exactly what Slaters will sell you right now and will have sold you for the last 10 or so years if you buy a G1F wheel), ie wheel width 5mm, flange width 1mm, flange depth 1.5mm.

Note, whatever anyone tells you, this is a perfectly practical wheel for running conditions in any G1 setting.

Wheel width now exceeds twice the flangeway (5mm versus 2mm)

All wheels still checked through crossing, as wheel check gauge (btb plus flange width) is 42mm whilst track check gauge is across checks figure plus flangeway, 40mm plus 2mm. This might need a bit of thought as at the limit wheels might just kiss the crossing nose, although compared to the hammering of stuff through the current dimensions I'd wager this would be a minor and live-able with imperfection.

Best solution is probably to narrow gauge through crossing to 43.5mm gauge(!)

Something to bear in mind while agonising over this last, Peco track is 44.5mm gauge as it is, so not too visually distressing a proposal.

The above would look better and perform better and would give you a genuinely backwards compatible new "Standard standard".

As I said, my initial thoughts, I'm pretty certain that if you examined the actual wheels on trade products they'd be found to be erring on the "scale side" of the standard standard as it is.

Simon

 

[David Halfpenny]

Thanks for taking the trouble to spell all of that out, Simon.

It's all feedstock for the "What's the Pitch?" thread at: What's the Pitch for 1:32? - and what about 'Finescale' ? where I'll copy it over verbatim.

David

 

[Simon]

Never mind all that Gauge Three stuff, this is the sort of thing that we need to see being produced in 1/32….



And the good news is that it is, by Fred Phipps.

And some amongst us would put that beautiful work atop standard wheels

Simon

 

[Dave Bowden]

Hi All

I'd like to pass a comment on 1/32 wagons. Fred's kits are of excellent quality but are for the BR era, if like me you wish to model in the 1930's period then there is not a lot available. This why I start to produce the range of Mink Vans and I also asked the question how many people would be interested in a 1/32 GWR Cattle wagon, and other then Ken Martin who I already new wanted five, nobody else put their hands up!

Dave

 

[Simon]

Hi All

I'd like to pass a comment on 1/32 wagons. Fred's kits are of excellent quality but are for the BR era, if like me you wish to model in the 1930's period then there is not a lot available. This why I start to produce the range of Mink Vans and I also asked the question how many people would be interested in a 1/32 GWR Cattle wagon, and other then Ken Martin who I already new wanted five, nobody else put their hands up!

Dave

Hi Dave

Well I guess whatever anyone does it won't be possible to cover all the bases, and Fred's van and now this open are/will be arguably the very first high fidelity BR stock that has ever been produced in 1/32 scale, whereas the earlier period has had a few.

Also, the joy of what Fred has produced here and with the van are the exquisitely believable corrugated ends, which are damn near impossible to scratchbuild, whereas the earlier types are all largely createable from Plastikard etc.

As far as your suggestions have gone, I guess that if you ask about a future/potential model then prospective customers don't really know the quality of what they are signing up for, whereas Fred's have the advantage of actually existing and being made by someone with a pretty unimpeachable reputation for veracity combined with artistry. (although I'm slightly less sanguine about his engineering to be fair...)

I'm just wondering what to suggest to Fred next as he appears to be on a bit of a roll - current favourite thought is the ubiquitous LMS corrugated ended van

This is definitely a bright part of the 1/32 world though, we need to get a Fred wagon built up and featured in MRJ next I think.

I wouldn't give up with your endeavours, I'm sure you'll find there's a market for decent 1/32 stuff, maybe not a very big one yet though....

Simon

 

[JimG]

Hi All

I'd like to pass a comment on 1/32 wagons. Fred's kits are of excellent quality but are for the BR era, if like me you wish to model in the 1930's period then there is not a lot available. This why I start to produce the range of Mink Vans and I also asked the question how many people would be interested in a 1/32 GWR Cattle wagon, and other then Ken Martin who I already new wanted five, nobody else put their hands up!

Dave,

Basically, you are providing a product for a small market and you have to have a lot of good research or a great stroke of luck to produce a wagon type that is going to interest several (maybe many) modellers - especially a wagon model where the range of prototypes is huge and modellers' interests can be quite eclectic. Where did you ask the question since internet forums can be a poor place to advertise? Messages can disappear quite quickly in the general mass of messages and an internet forum or mailing list can be quite hard to search.

However, if David, or whoever, does form a 1:32 group then its website could carry product pages where producers can advertise their products and 1:32 scale modellers would know where to go to find out about them. Simon's ScaleOne32 pages on the Titfield Thunderbolt site provide something like this at the moment.

1/32nd scale railway modelling

Jim.

 

[Dan Randall]

I'm just wondering what to suggest to Fred next as he appears to be on a bit of a roll

Given your recent workbench woes, I would have thought a BR/LNER 20T brake van was the obvious choice....


Regards

Dan

 

[Stoke5D]

Given your recent workbench woes, I would have thought a BR/LNER 20T brake van was the obvious choice....


Regards

Dan

Dead right. I had one of these on pre-order but as the supplier hasn't contacted me since to say it's available, I'm not going to remind him now I've seen all the issues...

Andrew

 

[Dave Bowden]

Dave,

Basically, you are providing a product for a small market and you have to have a lot of good research or a great stroke of luck to produce a wagon type that is going to interest several (maybe many) modellers - especially a wagon model where the range of prototypes is huge and modellers' interests can be quite eclectic. Where did you ask the question since internet forums can be a poor place to advertise? Messages can disappear quite quickly in the general mass of messages and an internet forum or mailing list can be quite hard to search.

However, if David, or whoever, does form a 1:32 group then its website could carry product pages where producers can advertise their products and 1:32 scale modellers would know where to go to find out about them. Simon's ScaleOne32 pages on the Titfield Thunderbolt site provide something like this at the moment.

1/32nd scale railway modelling

Jim.

Hi Jim
It's in the Question & Queries next page to the current one third item from the bottom.

Dave

 

[JimG]

Hi Jim
It's in the Question & Queries next page to the current one third item from the bottom.

I found it, but the thread will disappear deeper into the WT innards as time goes on.

Has Walsall gone ahead with the re-scaling of the etch to 1:32 or are they looking for a minimum order quantity before proceeding?

Jim.

 

[Dave Bowden]

I found it, but the thread will disappear deeper into the WT innards as time goes on.

Has Walsall gone ahead with the re-scaling of the etch to 1:32 or are they looking for a minimum order quantity before proceeding?

Jim.

Hi Jim
Roger said he would require a commitment of between 10 & 20 before he would get the artwork changed. So far only KM and me have said we would have 7 in total.

I'm going to the Fosse show on the 3rd of June are there any other WT 1/32 scale people going, if so we could meet up like we do at the GOG shows.

Dave

 

[David Halfpenny]

I'm going to the Fosse show on the 3rd of June are there any other WT 1/32 scale people going, if so we could meet up like we do at the GOG shows.

Great idea, Dave.
Here's a diagram of the space:[ATTACH67372[/ATTACH]
I suggest we meet at Noon by the Organiser's Office at the entrance top-left.
I believe this fits G0G tradition, and it happens to suit my Stewarding roster as well

By that time of day, we'll all have had a chance to get there and suss out the most practical corner in which to to conspire. Then we can leave a Note with the Office telling late-comers where to find us.

(Knowing how exhibition stands expand to fill any vacuum, my money's on the Mezzanine Restaurant, up the stairs at the right hand end of the plan.)
​

By the way, I'm the elderly gent who looks something like this cruel caricature:



David Halfpenny