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Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
That's why i stopped waisting my time updating my Workbench & Layout threads. ..........
And damned shame it is too; you've a cracking railway which I and others can only aspire to. And your recent workbench postings have been both interesting and thought-provoking; I don't usually see much radio control stuff...

It may be true that the forum hasn't developed as it might under Cynric, but I'm not so sure. I think most of the issues we now have are due to the size of the place. It's no longer the niche forum it was. I'd still welcome more variety though, noting that there don't seem to have been any 2mm postings for a while...

I still think it's pretty good, and perhaps the only way to keep it open and friendly is for us to post regularly. And yes I know I've not posted much of consequence in the last year or two.

Steph
 

Osgood

Western Thunderer
lancer1027 said:
I The problem is from where i see it is that S7 modellers only care about other S7 modellers and models, and frown upon anyone else that happens to model anything that is well lets just say "a model ".​
Rob - can you point to any evidence on WT supporting this view?

Simon- since you first raised the idea that S7 fraternity on here should maybe go find their own space, perhaps you could enlighten me if not others as to what made you form this view?

Phil, you seem to feel the same way as Rob and you no longer bother to post on your workbench and layout threads? Sorry to be blunt, but surely the damage is being done by those like you who have chosen to cut out / reduce your modelling content?

If you all do this then the forum will be a lot worse off and you will effectively be the ones bringing about detrimental change, not those who bother to post details of their work in S7.

Sorry but I really do not understand what on earth you are all on about.

SBB / non-modelling content? Phil - just take a look at your own content since 2010 (I did out of curiosity as I was interested to see what layout and workbench threads you had created that you no longer update) - I don't have time to look at the detail, but just skimming through it seems to me to be an ideal (for WT) mix of modelling, requests for advice/info and SBB (maybe 25% of your threads?) Looky here for a classic from Feb 2011 - note too that Cynric was happy to get involved!

http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/sign-of-the-times.671/

So - what exactly has changed that is upsetting everyone? :)


Haynes don't do a Repair Manual for Western Thunder, but if even they did it wouldn't be much use, since in order to use the fault-finding diagnostic charts you need to be able to identify the symptoms!
 

djparkins

Western Thunderer
Come on guys, this is very negative, and not something I recognise at all.

We were never going to replace Cynric, but I would remind you that he was a S7 modeller when WT started and actively encouraged S7 to this forum. The forum did survive Cynric's death and has grown and diversified, as all forums do if they are not to disappear. There are a lot of good threads which are worth following from all sources.

I don't believe S7 has skewed the forum much, and anyway, most of the S7 content is about construction, and the track gauge is irrelevant. Hell, I model in 31.5 gauge and that is very definitely a minority sport here or anywhere else.

In any event, isn't it better to encourage everyone else to post rather than criticise those that do? If you feel some content is missing, do something about it, but don't seek to cut down what is already there.

It reminds me more of the die-hards in the GOG or G1MRA who resist change.

I really didn't expect it here, and am sorry it has reared its head.

Richard



About a week before Cynric died we had quite a long telephone conversation. We had about four of these over time, during which I came to like him - even though we did not meet. That might have changed though, as I'd extended an invitation to visit us.

Since he died I've seen a few points on the forum when it might have seemed relevant to mention this last conversation that we had. Now I think it is the right time to do so. Some of what I'm about to say might not go down too well with some of you but I hope at least that you all know that I always strive to be honest in things - both as a trader and on this forum - so don't shoot the messenger!
 
Cynric told me that he was not too happy [that is exactly the right level to pitch it] with the way the forum was going. Phill is right when he says that it 'was set up as a haven for free speech among the modelling community' but more than than - it was started to be what Cynric hoped would be a forum for kit building [and mainly 7mm kit building at that!]. He said that lots of people had followed him across from 'the other place' and that now he just had to accept the way the forum was going. At no point in our conversation did he mention any lack of accent on things GWR/WR - possibly because he was realistic enough to appreciate that on a forum to be read anywhere by folks that are online, then just one region was always going to be of a minority interest. Besides, if you had a strictly WR forum - then we would not see some spectacular threads on here like that on Richard's Heyside layout.

But - and this is the bit bit you might not like - his desire to set up this forum was triggered by a thread on the other forum [before it was re-launched and moved] a long time back and to which we had both contributed. Basically, we were accused of being elitist in our views and he replied to the effect that, if wanting to continually improve ones modelling and strive for ever greater standards was elitist, then he was elitist and was proud to be so. This was what gave him the idea to set up WT. This all came out in our last conversation. I leave you all to consider this.

I feel it is is true that Cynric would not have wanted the forum to be dominated by S7 modellers, but neither would he have wanted them sidelined either. I don't see that WT is dominated by S7 particularly and as has been said - most of what S7 modellers do is relevant to someone building a kit to FS standards - just as it is as true the other way around. The whole of life is a learning process and a serious hobby such as we are engaged in requires us to continually learn, improve our techniques and to try to progress within it. There are always multiple ways of arriving at a similar outcome and that is where the input from all contributors is so valuable.

For myself [and as I have stated on a thread called 'The future for 7mm' on the other forum] - I think that with the growth of RTR, 7mm is now like 4mm in that there are increasingly two hobbies within each scale. There are the kit builders and the RTR enthusiasts [and this group will only grow]. I know many will say that most modellers have both RTR & kits and this is obviously true right now - but IMHO increasingly it will not be.

Why we all just cannot get along and leave each other in peace I do not know. The RTR guys can have fum and actually enjoy their hobby and the the kit guys can just be left 'out to pasture' to persue their own brand of masochistic enjoyment!

I mean no disrespect to Cynric whatsoever with this posting. Iv'e just tried to report honestly here the views that he expressed to me.

Regards To All,

DJP/MMP
 

Dikitriki

Flying Squad
I think there is a huge danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.

I really don't think WT is broken. I will readily accept that it is not the WT that some of us joined - and that Phill and Jordan, as well as Cynric nurtured - and that it is not primarily (perhaps not even close to being) Western biased. And that I think is the real problem. Those that wanted a Western based forum no longer have it. But if there aren't the Western modellers to join and contribute, there's not much that can be done.

To blame the S7 fraternity who take the trouble to post is infra dig. You might just as well have a go at me, as I haven't posted a single bit of GW modelling, and Heyside which is North-West based or Jordan's US outline. Where do you draw the line?

Personally, I am delighted the S7 fraternity have a home here - isn't Aberbeeg WR? - and I want to see good modelling of whatever nature, and if they want to build broad gauge stuff, hey, what does it matter. The last thing we should do IMO is seek to restrict their input. I feel sorry on their behalf that they are in some manner not of their making in the spotlight. Why?

Such a thread as this can get very acrimonious, so can I please ask you all to respect others' views and be polite and considerate in your responses. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view does not make their opinion any less valid.

Richard
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
SBB / non-modelling content? Phil - just take a look at your own content since 2010 (I did out of curiosity as I was interested to see what layout and workbench threads you had created that you no longer update) - I don't have time to look at the detail, but just skimming through it seems to me to be an ideal (for WT) mix of modelling, requests for advice/info and SBB (maybe 25% of your threads?) Looky here for a classic from Feb 2011 - note too that Cynric was happy to get involved!


There is a limit to how long I wished to bang my head against a brick wall posting my work which was completely at the other end of the spectrum to what most other modelling content posters post
Well at least I'm more in keeping with the majority of members now ......I post zero modelling content, although I would need to drastckly increase my chaff content to compete with some:rolleyes::D

I wonder if I had a secret time machine back then ;) http://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/sign-of-the-times.671/ ............

I would not like this forum to become a place where only the best modellers would be worthy of posting their efforts as I am sure it would become a very stale & stagnant place with plenty of hot air but little actual modelling content.

Phill :wave: (ducking for cover) :shit: :))

(edited for grammar courtesy of Helen) oops! :))
 

phileakins

Western Thunderer
Can we get back on track chaps, pun intended? :)

My copy of FRMR dropped onto the doormat on Thursday, and it's not been far from my hand since.

There's something for everyone, but I am particularly inspired by David Brandreth's Cordon build in so may ways, not least the soldering temperature tip (melting point x 2 + 25C) which I don't think I've ever seen published before. The build is real miniature engineering but written in such an open and engaging way that even I think that I can do it! Particularly useful as I'm struggling building the under-gear of an A2 tender (0 gauge (FS this time!)) Hopefully one day the end result will appear in the Shelf Queens thread the Guv started.

Actually, now I think on it, FRMR is a bit like WT - Something for everyone with expert advice and encouragement on tap ......

P
 

BrushType4

Western Thunderer
That's why i stopped waisting my time updating my Workbench & Layout threads. ..........
Phill, I wondered why you'd been quiet. Just so you know, I am often looking back at your old threads as inspiration. The weathering of your Heljan 47 I've read many times, though I still haven't the courage to weather my own as yet.

I like looking at other peoples pictures (especially the blue brigade) and I post pictures so people can look at my stuff. If my stuff is pants I don't mind people telling me, but be nice when you do ;)

I'm doing the best I can with my hamfisted hands :)

Anyway, I've not noticed any elitism and if it's happening or I'm guilty of it in any way then please poke me and tell me to wind my neck in :)
 

Phill Dyson

Western Thunderer
About a week before Cynric died we had quite a long telephone conversation. We had about four of these over time, during which I came to like him - even though we did not meet. That might have changed though, as I'd extended an invitation to visit us.

Since he died I've seen a few points on the forum when it might have seemed relevant to mention this last conversation that we had. Now I think it is the right time to do so. Some of what I'm about to say might not go down too well with some of you but I hope at least that you all know that I always strive to be honest in things - both as a trader and on this forum - so don't shoot the messenger!
 
Cynric told me that he was not too happy [that is exactly the right level to pitch it] with the way the forum was going. Phill is right when he says that it 'was set up as a haven for free speech among the modelling community' but more than than - it was started to be what Cynric hoped would be a forum for kit building [and mainly 7mm kit building at that!]. He said that lots of people had followed him across from 'the other place' and that now he just had to accept the way the forum was going. At no point in our conversation did he mention any lack of accent on things GWR/WR - possibly because he was realistic enough to appreciate that on a forum to be read anywhere by folks that are online, then just one region was always going to be of a minority interest. Besides, if you had a strictly WR forum - then we would not see some spectacular threads on here like that on Richard's Heyside layout.

But - and this is the bit bit you might not like - his desire to set up this forum was triggered by a thread on the other forum [before it was re-launched and moved] a long time back and to which we had both contributed. Basically, we were accused of being elitist in our views and he replied to the effect that, if wanting to continually improve ones modelling and strive for ever greater standards was elitist, then he was elitist and was proud to be so. This was what gave him the idea to set up WT. This all came out in our last conversation. I leave you all to consider this.

I feel it is is true that Cynric would not have wanted the forum to be dominated by S7 modellers, but neither would he have wanted them sidelined either. I don't see that WT is dominated by S7 particularly and as has been said - most of what S7 modellers do is relevant to someone building a kit to FS standards - just as it is as true the other way around. The whole of life is a learning process and a serious hobby such as we are engaged in requires us to continually learn, improve our techniques and to try to progress within it. There are always multiple ways of arriving at a similar outcome and that is where the input from all contributors is so valuable.

For myself [and as I have stated on a thread called 'The future for 7mm' on the other forum] - I think that with the growth of RTR, 7mm is now like 4mm in that there are increasingly two hobbies within each scale. There are the kit builders and the RTR enthusiasts [and this group will only grow]. I know many will say that most modellers have both RTR & kits and this is obviously true right now - but IMHO increasingly it will not be.

Why we all just cannot get along and leave each other in peace I do not know. The RTR guys can have fum and actually enjoy their hobby and the the kit guys can just be left 'out to pasture' to persue their own brand of masochistic enjoyment!

I mean no disrespect to Cynric whatsoever with this posting. Iv'e just tried to report honestly here the views that he expressed to me.

Regards To All,

DJP/MMP

First of all, thank you for sharing the conversations you had with Cynric.


I know & agree with what you are saying David, but when this forum started it had 2 members & was in great danger of not getting off the ground. I came along (invited by Cynric) as member number 3, I took it upon myself rightly or wrongly to up the membership to around 100 members, this was the figure Cynric thought was realistic in order to sustain a forum. I did this by inviting friends & acquaintances from various places to come & join us ......this brought us up to that figure of around 100 of like minded individuals to sustain the place. As you say, although this may not have been quite what was envisaged originally, Cynric must have been reasonably happy as he made me recruitment officer & then later invited myself & Jordan to help him run the place.

We did indeed move from the "larger scale BR(WR) building ideal " we both shared, but this was a necessity to keep the forum running.......there are plenty of forums around which get a couple of posts a week, but they cannot sustain themselves. One concern myself & Cynric shared was the lack of 'doers' on the forum & that is still as much of a problem today as it was then unfortunately.

There are the two category's you mention of 'kit builders' & 'rtr', but there is also a third category in which I include myself, that is layout builders ( who are somewhere between the two)........we certainly don't have enough of those.

What we desperately need IMO is doers & layout builders to sustain this place & we do not get enough of them & sometimes sadly we fail to keep the ones we do have .......a lot of that though is down to the Admin!

Phill.
 

Dan Randall

Western Thunderer
I wish I had time to build a layout!

Perhaps I should make some time.

Heather - If you should discover the secret of making time, please share it with us.

I have a large enough stash of kits to keep me entertained for the foreseeable future, plus my dabblings with etching and 3D printing, but with my crazy shifts and constant need to do overtime, I'm either not at home or at home and too knackered to do anything. I also want to build a layout....


Regards

Dan
 

alcazar

Guest
Plus you need to find time to get me some of those Wezzie windows.......

Anyway, back on topic...I have subscribed.

I'll blame you lot if it's not up to par......:)
 

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
I subscribed and received my first copy the day after.......liked the LED article, gonna need that on Bow Creek.
Still buying MRJ as well.

Col.
 

phileakins

Western Thunderer
I wish I had time to build a layout!

Perhaps I should make some time.

But Heather - in Phill's eyes. As I understand it, you are a 'doer'. ie you produce something fairly consistently whereas the rest of us (guilty as charged m'lud) only produce from time to (seldom) time, if at all and are thus criticised.

Anyway, it's all academic now as Phill has resigned and WT has been left looking for a new identity.

I think I'd go along with the philosophy of FRML expressed in the first editorial - "Anything as long as it amazes and delights us ... If it looks like the real thing its good enough for us". FS (a broad camp) seen through "hands on modelling , as opposed to simply buying things." That'll do for me I think.

Over to you FS - I don't envy you.

Phil
 

rosspeacock

Modelling on a £1200 table.
Off topic but I've been reading all the developments on this thread and keep going to comment then something else gets posted..
Can't we all just play with our 'toy' (be they western region, n, oo, 7mm, S7, Gscale, Blue, Green, GWR, LMS, LNER, SR, BR) trains together..
All this negativity isn't good for WT, I'll admit myself its not the same on here and if members like Phill and others who've been here since virtually day 1 are fed up and aren't going to post anymore on their threads it must be bad? It takes time and effort to take pictures and write posts, as nice as it is to get 'likes' its much nicer to get positive feedback in 'post's' otherwise what's the point...

Ross.. :)
 

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
There is a limit to how long I wished to ... posting my work which was completely at the other end of the spectrum to what most other modelling content posters post
Phil,

I understand that what you have been doing is so different to my output - that a difference exists does not reduce the impact of your layout nor take anything away from the enjoyment which I have had in reading your posts.
 

Simon

Flying Squad
What's the difference between demonstrating how to paint a figure in 0 gauge, Scale7, 4 or 2mm?
What's the difference between discussing ideas for working suspension in 0 Gauge, Scale7, 4 or 2mm?
What's the difference between generating highly realistic brickwork in (yes, you've got it)?

The only discussions possibly unique to S7 I perceive might be somewhat introverted discussions about clearances, frame spacing and available space to fit in scale working mechanisms - is there anything else setting the S7 brigade apart on here?

Osgood old chap, you have hit the nail very squarely on the head - although I think there is actually quite a bit of difference between techniques and a whole lot else between the smaller and larger scales, but I don't think that is the point you were making.

In other words, there is no difference so why create one by labelling it as S7?

I feel a bit bad for having apparently lobbed a hand grenade into the happy coffee shop that is WT, but on the day that Phill Dyson's tells you he's had enough and isn't going to be posting his work any more it seemed reasonable to reflect a bit on why that may be.

No of course I wouldn't deny asylum to a bunch of refugees, although I still wonder whether your own aims and aspirations wouldn't be better served by something properly constituted for the promulgation of S7. As an aside, I have been contemplating the same idea for "realistic Gauge 1" so you needn't feel that I am "getting at" Scaleseven especially.

I guess it's also to do with perception, most of the S7 stuff that is irksome goes way over my head, but it has clearly had an impact with some of us, like it or not.

I appreciate introspection is laden with problems but I'm afraid I still feel introspective.

Simon
 

Heather Kay

Western Thunderer
I thought the labels were to help flag posts so they could be avoided if they "weren't your bag", as it were. It's the only reason I've used them. I probably won't bother in future. ;)

Now, we did try an S7 forum a few years ago. It didn't really work, for various reasons. The e-list was more successful, but had tailed off of late and is now defunct. I'm not really sure the standard needs to be partitioned off in that way, to be honest. It's just a standard and, as others have said, most of the rest is just your normal modelling techniques.

Autumn. It seems to be a time for introspection. Sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. We'll have to wait and see if this bout is one or t'other.
 

Dan Randall

Western Thunderer
there is no difference so why create one by labelling it as S7?

Err, but Project Watersmeet has a 1/32 label in front of it....

All joking apart, I agree with what Heather says in that labels help flag posts that you may want to avoid (though I don't think there are any I don't look at eventually on WT), or by the same token and perhaps more importantly, identify ones you wish to look at first. I haven't used them because I don't know how to include them yet, but when I find out, I expect I will. :thumbs:


Regards

Dan
 

iploffy

OC Blue Brigade
Personally I keep on looking at the S7 tag and wondering what is it all about, 2 mm difference in a gauge, discussions always, always come back to take some off the front of the wheel some off the back a bit off the boss, make your own frame spacers, moan about the quality of the castings. If the kits are not what you want why buy them surely you could get together and make kits that don't require all of the skilled cutting of a surgeon. I am not skilled in the darker arts but almost all of the S7 posts are extremely repetitive and say the same things. It makes a change to see some mega bodging, fiddling with what you have to make it better, rather than reading the same old stuff. Produce a kit and build it please.
 
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