4mm Milford-On-Sea - was Plumtree Cross

[Nick C]

Yep, that's the plan. I spoke to the proprietor of geoscenics earlier, he said there's nothing in the ballast that could be conductive, but that it could be the glue, apparently it's got additives in it that can do strange things, although he'd not heard of that! I'm going to do a few test pieces with different combinations, so I'll report on the results!

 

[Nick C]

So - I took an offcut of ply, and stuck down a bit of cork, to replicate the baseboard. Glued down a couple of scrap bits of copperclad as guides, then added some patches of the siding ballast, with 6 combinations of glue, then left for 36 hours:

1 - sprayed with water, then WWS glue - as per the layout - conductive
2 - sprayed with water, then Geoscenics glue - glue didn't flow well, crumbled to loose when I jabbed it with the meter prongs. Not conductive
3 - sprayed with water, then PVA - the PVA didn't flow well either, but did fix what it reached. Not conductive.
4 - dry, then WWS - conductive
5 - dry, then Geoscenics - didn't flow again, crumbled. not conductive
6 - dry, then PVA - didn't flow again. Not conductive.

So basically, none were any good, though number 3 was probably the least worst, and perhaps would be better with a touch of washing-up liquid to break the surface tension. I'll try a test with latex glue next - @simond, where do you get it from?

 

[simond]

Nick,

I’ve used Mapei latex from Screwfix.

Mapei Latex Plus 1.5kg - Screwfix

Order online at Screwfix.com. For use with Mapei Keraquick. Improves flexibility, protects from frost and allows use on timber. Suitable for interior and exterior walls and floors. Use 4 x 1.5kg bottle with 1 x 20kg bag of Keraquick tile adhesive. FREE next day delivery available, free...

www.screwfix.com

obviously other brands / suppliers are available.

I water it down about 50:50, and I spray the track & ballast with a mister bottle with one or two drops of something that keeps your hands soft but does your dishes in a bottleful of water. My ballast is a mixture of Javis granite clippings and various synthetics, including Woodland Scenics and Hobbytrade. The latex is very runny, and it’s very visible when you dropper it onto the ballast, I put loads on, and probably a few applications, to make sure everything is well stuck. It does tend to settle, and you can find surface stuff not well stuck on the first application.

My track has been down for a while, and I just checked the resistance, it’s so high my meter can’t register anything over short (few mm) or longer (several cm) distances between the probes.

Two potential issues were raised on the other forum about latex smelling - Copydex does but this stuff doesn’t - and it peeling up when drilled, again, not something I’ve had an issue with, again, possibly a Copydex (or similar) problem.

The reason I used it is because PVA does react with granite chippings and turn them green, this stuff doesn’t do that.



Not too shabby, I hope!

 

[adrian]

I water it down about 50:50, and I spray the track & ballast with a mister bottle with one or two drops of something that keeps your hands soft but does your dishes in a bottleful of water. My ballast is a mixture of Javis granite clippings and various synthetics, including Woodland Scenics and Hobbytrade. The latex is very runny, and it’s very visible when you dropper it onto the ballast, I put loads on, and probably a few applications, to make sure everything is well stuck. It does tend to settle, and you can find surface stuff not well stuck on the first application.

I applied it in a similar way on my display plank, although I didn't spray it. In the past I've had trouble with it shifting the carefully laid ballast. The surface tension of the latex/water mix is sufficient that I could use the dropper right on the edge of the ballast shoulder and capillary action did the rest and sucked it up into all the ballast. With it being white before it dried you could see the progress and if more was required sufficient to make sure all the ballast was glued. The added benefit of not spraying is that the rails and pointwork was free of a layer of latex so didn't need cleaning up.

 

[simond]

Just to clarify - I mist everything with water & washing up liquid, I put the watered down latex on from a dropper bottle, straight into the ballast, ideally not on top of track or sleepers. I could have worded it better!

 

[Nick C]

Thanks both. Then, of course, I've got to work out how to get the conductive ballast up, if it doesn't stop being conductive! May well not be possible without destroying the trackwork...

I'll try ignoring it for a few weeks to see if time makes a difference, but the fact that there doesn't appear to be a difference between the bits I did a month ago and the latest bits, doesn't fill me with confidence there.

 

[simond]

I guess it depends how hard it is, and whether it actually soaked into your sleepers & timbers.

perhaps a bit of digging with a sharpened screwdriver? (Though it’ll be difficult with your fingers crossed!)

 

[adrian]

Thanks both. Then, of course, I've got to work out how to get the conductive ballast up, if it doesn't stop being conductive! May well not be possible without destroying the trackwork...

I'll try ignoring it for a few weeks to see if time makes a difference, but the fact that there doesn't appear to be a difference between the bits I did a month ago and the latest bits, doesn't fill me with confidence there.

As you now have a couple of test pieces to try - do you have access to a resistance soldering unit? Full on mains is probably not a wise idea but just curious, with adequate precautions of course, what a few amps from an RSU would do - if anything. Now waiting for all the electrical engineers to tell me what a really bad idea this is!

 

[LarryG]

I use Woodland Scenics light grey ballast glued down with lashings of neat PVA and is has never turned green. Jusr sayin'.

 

[simond]

Larry,

the Woodlands Scenics stuff is made from nuts or something. It’s not actual granite, which the Javis stuff is.
it’s a chemical reaction between the granite and the PVA. I’ll do a bit later to show you.

Adrian,

I like the RSU idea, though I’m not wholly convinced it’ll work, it’s certainly worth a try rather than ripping up track and ballast that Nick has presumably laboured over. I suspect using the mains might be rather exciting…

Nick,

if the worst comes to the worst, boiling water and a paint scraper. This will get Peco style track & copperclad up with little or no damage to the track, if glued down with PVA or latex. Tends to spoil the scenic effects, however.

 

[NHY 581]

I use Woodland Scenics light grey ballast glued down with lashings of neat PVA and is has never turned green. Jusr sayin'.

I'm with Larry. Last two layouts have used Woodland scenics ballast secured with traditional Pva/ washing up liquid/water mix. I use quite quite a high ratio of Pva.

No greening.

Previously, I've used granite ballast. Same methods to secure. Again no greening.

Rob.

 

[NHY 581]

So - I took an offcut of ply, and stuck down a bit of cork, to replicate the baseboard. Glued down a couple of scrap bits of copperclad as guides, then added some patches of the siding ballast, with 6 combinations of glue, then left for 36 hours:


3 - sprayed with water, then PVA - the PVA didn't flow well either, but did fix what it reached. Not conductive.

My prefered option but I add washing up liquid to the water prior to misting then secure with a water/pva/wul mix.

Pva/water literally 50/50 with a few drops of washing up liquid. Applied with a syringe.

Rob.

 

[michael080]

0

Full on mains is probably not a wise idea but just curious, with adequate precautions of course, what a few amps from an RSU would do - if anything. Now waiting for all the electrical engineers to tell me what a really bad idea this is!

I like the idea. The short might light up.
Or you might get a bit of magic smoke from the ballast.

Michael

 

[Nick C]

As you now have a couple of test pieces to try - do you have access to a resistance soldering unit? Full on mains is probably not a wise idea but just curious, with adequate precautions of course, what a few amps from an RSU would do - if anything. Now waiting for all the electrical engineers to tell me what a really bad idea this is!

I don't have an RSU - but I did try sticking the 12v controller across it to see what would happen. Lots of sparks flitting through the ballast - and then smoke when I turned up the voltage!

if the worst comes to the worst, boiling water and a paint scraper. This will get Peco style track & copperclad up with little or no damage to the track, if glued down with PVA or latex. Tends to spoil the scenic effects, however.

I think that's probably the best idea - luckily, as you'll see from the photos, I've not done much scenics yet! I've got a whole roll of the cork, so I don't care about wrecking that - it's mostly the points I don't want to damage, as they're expensive!

 

[simond]

Sparks and smoke may be a good thing. You’ve proven where the short circuit is, and it may be possible to burn it out by the application of enough “grunt”. If this doesn’t set the layout (or house) on fire, of course.

Try it a few times and see if it still shorts. If you have a car battery, and jump leads…

 

[simond]

It’s not as obvious as I recall, but the granite on the business card has a greenish colour cast



real granite chippings and el-cheapo PVA.

actually, more obvious from a distance.

 

[Phil O]

The granite from Pitts Cleave Quarry has a green tint to it, just to the North of Tavistock, also some of Meldon Quarry has a similar tinge to it.

 

[Nick C]

So with the layout on hold until I decide what to do about the ballast, I decided to try my hand at weathering, using some of the techniques from the first couple of chapters of George Dent's book.

The open is a Cambrian model, on which the varnish went white on drying, so I've tried adding in some replacement planks, followed by a brown wash - it needs more work to tone it down once dry. The van is a Dapol one, done with the brush-on-wipe-off technique. Thoughts and constructive criticism welcome!

 

[Tim Hale]

Nick,

I am sure that you are fed up with advice, so here is an observation instead.

I use a wall paper stripper to remove ballast laid with PVA, not the fluid but the electric kettle thingy with the flat applicator. It is dangerous when it spits boiling water but it does shift compacted ballast. If you are local West Dorset, you can have mine.

As for ballast, I use ONLY Woodland Scenics N-scale fine with dilute indoor (not waterproof) PVA from Wickes or Evostick Resin W

Apologies, I’ll get me coat

Tim

 

[Nick C]

Thanks Tim - we've got a steamer, I hadn't thought of trying that