1/32 Promoting Better Wheels and Track

JimG

Western Thunderer
Just found the reference to Ian's article in the MRJ

Resin-Cast Track Parts for 7mm

Ian Pusey


Issue 37 (1990)


p.394


7mm


Ian Pusey is a long standing devotee of 'S' scale. Knowing that he had experience of resin-cast track components , we asked him to review a new permanent way system for 7mm.

Jim.
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
Here's a rather crude insulated spoked wheel in our sort of size, made on a bit of kitchen worktop:
- Slaters batch-produced steel tyre
- laser-cut spoke Plug
- poured soft silicone female mould
- fresh tyre placed in mould
- poured polyurethane casting resin
- tyre centred on lathe to drill axle hole true (could use bell chuck)

Resin Casting - Association of Shrewsbury Railway Modellers

Southwold spoked wheel for 45mm gauge.jpg

Wheels like this can include a locking groove inside the tyre.

I'm wary myself, even though the process could be refined in places, but it does provide a number of different wagon wheels from a single batch of tyres, as suggested by Cynric, end of 2012.

I particularly like drilling the axle hole after assembly (as opposed to trying to make a super-concentric plastic component in a soft mould). For example one could buy-in high-resolution 3D prints for the centres, inject a resin or adhesive to fix it into the tyre, then drill and ream, cancelling any slight dimensional anisotropy in the prints. (That's important because prints aren't always made the same way up in the machine.)

Naturally, not everyone wants a wheel factory in the kitchen, and complete tubs of silicone and resin are overkill for a guy who only wants four wheels to start with. David
 
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David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
Here's the Shapeways Shop of one of my New Zealand internet chums, showing how he designs his narrow-gauge wheels, and giving digital-image impressions of detail.
7/8thsNarrowGauge by Vailala - Shapeways Shops
If you click on a product, then click on the 3D icon, you can spin the 3D image around with your mouse or trackpad.
Note that the price is for rather more material than we would need for Inserts, and includes his modest margin though not shipping (from Holland).

He's specified laser-sintered materials - different choices for each of his products. These are far removed from the crude, hollow 'demented glue-gun' prints familiar from hobby machines. Shapeways has additional materials and processes, for example their recent Black Acrylic is smooth, rigid and shows no pixellation even close up. (Trick is to request it without de-sprueing cos they don't always do that the way we would.)
Among recent additions is a strong Aluminium, which is fine-grained, workable, and perfect for cheap, relatively short-run injection moulds.

Of course, each 3D process has separate Rules about the minimum sizes of parts, surface detail, gaps, cavities etc. If you draw a part in 3D (using simple and/or free software, some of which works on a smartphone) Shapeways website will auto-check your design for technical issues in a wide range of materials, including solid gold.

David
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
was I the only person that (eventually) noticed that the diameter of the wheels supplied on the G1MRCo/Accucraft coaches is too small?!:headbang:
While at The Fosse earlier, I took the opportunity to measure the wheels on both G1MRC/Accucraft (3' 4" diameter) and Bowande/Wuhu Brand (3' 7") Mark 1 coaches, and to compare each with Roxey 3' 7" wheels.

Yes, the roughly 3" difference in diameter looks ENORMOUS - after all it's about 15% difference in area.

Retro-fitting 3' 7" wheels to the G1MRCo coaches may well be possible - I didn't like to press the point since as soon I unsheathed my Dial Caliper Gauge poor Graham Langer had said, "You frighten me!".
. . . Yes, it would need a correction to ride height and yes, it would limit curve radius . . . yet Bowande have done it . . .
. . . . . . And having seen the difference, it's very hard to ignore it.

As Simon says, you couldn't make it up ( even if Gauge 0 is actually worse, counting all the scale-gauge combinations.)

Now here's a thought:
When I put Roxey G1MRA Standard wheels beside the hapless AccuG1M, they looked massively over-scale, but when I substituted the Roxey Dead-Scale wheels, they looked Just Right (if one imagined them in black, of course).

David
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
While at The Fosse earlier, I took the opportunity . . .
. . . to play with a self-steering bogie on the Switch and Crossing Work, after all the steam engines had gone to bed.

Most interesting results, that I'll put in a separate thread so as not to muddle this one, because although Better Wheels are involved, Promoting is not.
If anyone's at The Fosse today, buttonhole me for a natter.
Thanks to those who did, and thanks for your helpful contributions. David
 

Simon

Flying Squad
Retro-fitting 3' 7" wheels to the G1MRCo coaches may well be possible - I didn't like to press the point since as soon I unsheathed my Dial Caliper Gauge poor Graham Langer had said, "You frighten me!".

The larger wheels will easily fit into the G1MRCo coach without any clearance issues. In fact, if you look at the brake blocks that G1MRCo have fitted, the whole thing looks to have been designed for the correct sized wheels. The immediate "problem" is that you need new bearings of course. Ride height wise, I have a feeling they sit too low as they are, of course they'll look that bit better sat next to 10mm stock with an increased ride height:p

It would be lovely if G1MRCo corrected this in new batches. It would be even lovelier if they produced the very distinctive and numerous composite coach, I'm guessing they won't though.

Going back to your resin centres, a friend and I tried this and it works well, but as you observed trying to cast the axle hole at the same time is problematic. We found that you needed to bore them out in a separate operation, which makes it even more of a craft project. What stopped us (back then) was a lack of turned tyres to play with, producing those manually was even more of a craft process!

I did actually ask Peartree to go ahead and produce some ScaleOne32 wagon wheel sets, but I think he's one of those chaps you have to keep gently prodding before anything happens.

Different subject, but I think I have got the talented Justin Newitt currently looking at producing some sensibly sprung, easy to use and correctly detailed 1/32 wagon underframe and brake etch sets.

Simon
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
Mark Wood already does 1/32 form tools - at £40 + postage.
Form tools
My Mark Wood form tools have arrived.
Here's Mark's description:
At present (May 2016) I have form tools available for Gauge One Scale 32, Gauge One Fine, Gauge One Standard and for Gauge 3 Standard. Tools to other profiles can be supplied to order.
Tool sizes for Gauge One and for Gauge 3 are 3/8 x 3/8 x 4".
Tool sizes for 3 1/2" gauge are 1/2 x 1/2 x 4".
£40.00 per tool plus delivery.
and photo: upload_2017-4-27_14-39-36.png

The blank is PRESTO MOLY, which I think is M2 HSS, and would be at least a tenner in a shop.
The 'Scale32' profile is slightly finer than Roxey Mouldings "Dead Scale" wheels, but matches the flange depth. It's wire-cut, making it a completely parallel groove down the front-rake of the tool. This means the tool can be re-sharpened many, many times, unlike one with side-rake too. It also means that even a used one can be used as a Profile Gauge, and also to mark out and check its own replacement (if you need one after Mark retires, and fancy grinding something that small at home).
I've no intention of trying to shove it straight into a steel wheel blank on any of my (mostly small) lathes - that's for Experiment. The ideal would be to develop a way of using it on a really cheap lathe, but we may have to settle for just a fairly cheap one :) Mark's proven method is at: Turning castings

I suspect a lot of us will be starting with a commercial wheelset, rather than a bar of inch and a quarter EN1A BDMS :)
David
 
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adrian

Flying Squad
I've no intention of trying to shove it straight into a steel wheel blank on any of my (mostly small) lathes - that's for Experiment. The ideal would be to develop a way of using it on a really cheap lathe, but we may have to settle for just a fairly cheap one :) Mark's proven method is at: Turning castings

I've just been turning up some wheel castings using Mark's method - it worked really well. These wheel are slightly smaller being 7mm scale but done in a cheap mini lathe.

Very Little Gravitas Indeed*

If you are using his method you'll need some aluminium blanks to make the various mandrels. I found a useful supplier Forward Metals that allowed me to specify custom cuts, I've not got a power saw and didn't fancy chopping 1 1/2 bar by hand. so they did all the cutting for me.
Free Cutting
Although if you have a power saw then it won't be a problem.
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
Here are my first two Scaleone32 wheels, made using a Mark Wood form tool, along with the Standard wheels that I turned them down from:

20170904_232636.jpg

The disk wheel is from Accucraft - as it happens, the cheapest commercial wheels I can get.
It's diecast from some kind of free-cutting buttermetal, with a central insulating bush.
(Be aware that Accucraft use more than one kind of bush and axle.)
I've turned all the chrome off the tyre, and reduced the thickness to 4.5mm, a process which produced a en entire matchbox-full of fine, curly swarf.
I shall fill the stark hollowed face with some kind of resin, then drill through three of the six holes.

The spoked wheel is from Walsall - the second cheapest I can get. They come without axles and have moulded plastic spoked centres with 1/8" holes.
The tyre is free-cutting steel that disintegrates into fine chips.
Because it's difficult to turn the spokes, I stopped reducing the thickness when I got to 4.7mm. I'm surprised that the extra 0.2mm is so visible; room for improvement.

As each type of wheel needs it's own chucking method, I'll try some further makes (notably Slaters F series) before describing turning. My methods are a throwback to a pre-industrial age: simple, accurate but s l o w, using a cheap wood-turning lathe and little more than chuck, form tool and caliper. I can put the whole wheel-turning outfit in a carrier bag and lift it with one finger.
Suffice it for now to say that, by starting with a ready-turned wheel made of free-cutting metal, all I had to do was rough off most of the excess metal 'near enough' with hand tools, then finish the flange with the form tool, also held in my hand.​

While these two wheels aren't perfect to my critical eye, they cost less than £2 each, have a better profile and better finish than they started with, and seem perfectly usable. Time will of course tell - the next steps are to fit them to axles at their new Back to Back, and then find or make a Scaleone32 or Exact Scale turnout.
Yet another reason for hoping Simon C can come to the G1MRA AGM next month :)

David
 

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LNWR 1900

New Member
It is interesting from the commercial aspect. Wearing my Finney7 hat, we are developing a 1/32 Bulleid Light Pacific which will be as high-fidelity as we can make it....which will be very high indeed.

We have had not a shred of interest from G1, at least not on the pretty moribund forum I am a member of, and I have had no private messages of interest, but a lot of enthusiasm from 7mm modellers - enough to convince us we can cover our not inconsiderable costs. It strikes me there is a cadre of 7mm modellers who are looking to build the most accurate models they can who would love to have a statement piece in G1 of the same standard they expect in 7mm scale.

I am genuinely shocked and disappointed at the lack of finescale 1/32 kits in G1 (with the notable exception of those from Fred Phipps). It reminds me of the time I was looking to move to 7mm from 4mm, 35 years ago, but wasn't prepared to because I would be faced with kits in the larger scale that weren't a patch on those in the smaller scale.

Richard
 

LNWR 1900

New Member
Hello Richard, I'm also a S7 modeler with many of your 7mm kits constructed and just venturing into G1 and I am also very disappointed with the lack of detailed loco kits in G1 so I am very pleased to here you are producing a 1/32 Bulleid pacific, how is this progressing? Could you also please consider producing the T3, A1/3 and Princess Coronation and I think your broad gauge Rover would be quite a splendid popular addition as well?
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
As I have two dogs in this fight, I'll treat myself to two replies, Richard :)

Firstly, as the owner of the 'pretty moribund forum' on which you kindly announced your Bulleid, seven years ago.
  • Yes, the forum is indeed pretty moribund, having outlived its purpose, which was to create collective Build and Snagging Sequences for groups of people assembling new G1 live-steam kits. That industry is now dormant, though not necessarily permanently.
  • Yes, only one person expressed interest on that forum, but he did say 'lots of people' had been excited by your initiative.
  • I'm very happy to give you as much publicity as you wish, both online and in print.
David
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
Secondly, as a Board member of G1MRA - provided I'm re-elected in September.
There's another keen 1:32 advocate running for election too.

G1MRA is famous for its jolly live-steaming on seriously obsolete track.

Great fun, but we know it's Not Enough for everyone.
Which is why we have a 1:32 Finescale special-interest group.

Perhaps like Finney7, we'd like to know:

How to find those people out there who want Very High Fidelity in G1?
Because unless you can find them, it'll be hard to build up a HiFi G1 market.
And unless we can find them, we can't develop a community they'll feel comfortable in.

The best answers I can give at the moment is, "Here, on Western Thunder",
and "In Europe and America."
G1MRA has the the suppliers, the exhibitions, the technology and the Board-level support, but we don't have more than a handful of names and numbers.
And that bothers us.
David
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
Hello Richard, I'm also a S7 modeler with many of your 7mm kits constructed and just venturing into G1 and I am also very disappointed with the lack of detailed loco kits in G1 so I am very pleased to here you are producing a 1/32 Bulleid pacific, how is this progressing? Could you also please consider producing the T3, A1/3 and Princess Coronation and I think your broad gauge Rover would be quite a splendid popular addition as well?
Hello LNWR 1900, may I ask you what your plans would be, in an ideal G1 world?

Clearly you'd like more kits with more detail:

Would you like them 2-rail?
Are you building a running model railway?
Indoors or outdoors?
Or perhaps a static collection?
As an S7 modeler, do you have opinions on track standards ?
Are you wanting to share track with others?
Or run / display at home?
Do you want hi-fi rolling stock to match the locomotives?
In other words, what can you tell me about this 'hidden' market?
It's bound to be small, given that, out of the vast Gauge 0 market, Scale 7 has a membership "in (only) three figures". But as this quote from the S7 website shows, a G1 equivalent still has huge potential to be mighty.
"The modeller should aim to build everything to the same standard, be it locos, wagons, carriages, signals, trackwork, lineside structures, road vehicles, plants and animals, people. This holistic approach can provide for some staggeringly beautiful models."
David
 

LNWR 1900

New Member
Hello David, I agree with your quote at the end entirely, everything needs to be built to the same standard, which is what I'm aiming at working to as near dead scale as possible with an indoor layout. I'm working primarily to Scale One 32 and what seems to be a reasonable track standard compromise as I also have a couple of very fine 10mm LNWR locos that I acquired before I homed in on working to 1/32 scale. I'm still finding my way around possible suppliers, but to date I've not found anyone producing hi fidelity pre-grouping LNWR and MR corridor coach kits or other regions and BR for that matter. There seems to be more possibilities with wagons, albeit limited and locos are non-existent other than Slaters Kirtley Goods which I have already built with much added scratch building detail to bring it up to a better standard.

I would also like to build LSWR X2 or T3, T9, N15, GNR C1 and A1 locos and matching stock, but again there doesn't seem to be any good kits.

Best
 

David Halfpenny

Western Thunderer
I'm struggling to find out who supplies what in 1:32...

There's certainly a need, Paul, and the obvious place to look is the advertising pages of G1MRA's quarterly Newsletter & Journal. While not every supplier advertises in every issue, they do self-update over time.

A 1:32-specific source is at:
1: 32 Finescale Suppliers
which is more static than adverts, but then it's free-to-use :)

While a longer list of all G1 suppliers is at:
Traders

which simply gives email addresses by business name.

European modellers can take a look at Faszination Spur 1, which is pretty well 100% 1:32.
It's available either as individual copies, or on subscription at a modest discount.

  • Don't be put off by its German language: let Google Translate be your friend. There's a trade-off between the handiness of a small phone screen and the readability of a clunky tablet screen, but it gives you good idiomatic English translations that you can screen-save.
David

 

Paul Tomlinson

Western Thunderer
There's certainly a need, Paul, and the obvious place to look is the advertising pages of G1MRA's quarterly Newsletter & Journal. While not every supplier advertises in every issue, they do self-update over time.

A 1:32-specific source is at:
1: 32 Finescale Suppliers
which is more static than adverts, but then it's free-to-use :)

While a longer list of all G1 suppliers is at:
Traders

which simply gives email addresses by business name.

European modellers can take a look at Faszination Spur 1, which is pretty well 100% 1:32.
It's available either as individual copies, or on subscription at a modest discount.

  • Don't be put off by its German language: let Google Translate be your friend. There's a trade-off between the handiness of a small phone screen and the readability of a clunky tablet screen, but it gives you good idiomatic English translations that you can screen-save.
David
David, Thank you very much for your reply and the lists. I can see that a number of the listed suppliers deal in RTR models, which is not my thing, and that both lists contain details of traders who are no longer in business. I'm familiar with the 7mm world, where we are fortunate in that there are a number of suppliers of etched and cast (locomotive) components - but apart from a handful of whitemetal items from Walsall Model Industries, I haven't found anything remotely similar in G1, especially 1:32. Cheers, anyway.
 
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