Scattergun The Yellow stripe discussion.

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Following a recent interesting discussion and my general interest in engines with the yellow stripe I thought it'd be good to put it all in here.

So from the other thread I'll reiterate thus.

Brian, I've not heard of a blanket ban on Scots or Coronations from working under the wires, certainly not all of those classes or all of any class carried yellow stripes, there are plenty of photos of Scots and Coronations without yellow stripes working south of Crewe past 1960 when the wires were energized, some even as late as 64 when virtually all of the electrifed zone was live. There's even more of them working north under the wires to Weaver Jct, either on trains to Liverpool which was electrified or to the Glasgow.

There is also evidence of engines with yellow stripes working south of Crewe as well, usually later, say 63 64 when it was realized that the original calculations had erred on the side of caution, or when engines had worn enough to clear the clearance gallows fitted at Crewe, Rugby and Willesden, to name but three.

Coronations, all 1964, all working south of Crewe under live wires, the Watford one may not be live or if it was, only just and being used for testing etc, but the engine would of traveled south under long sections that were live.

46228 Madeley 64
46228_Madeley 64.JPG

46228 Watford 64
46228_Watford Aug 1964.jpg

46240 Rugby 64
46240_Rugby 64.jpg

Engine height OHLE wire test gallows at Willesden 1961, at this time electrification was only Crewe to Manchester with the Liverpool extension was under way and completed the following year.
49413_Willesden 1961.jpg

Scots tended not to be regular at Willesden after 62-63 but still made the odd special trip, Coronations worked to Euston until the very end, long after Camden closed and were serviced at Willesden as late as 64.

More than happy to carry on the yellow stripe debate, but suggest a new thread so as to not clutter Nicks up, it could get image heavy ;), yellow striped locos, their trains and locations from 60-64 south of Crewe being one of my more abused anoraks, in fact 'any' steam, diesel or electric 1960-64 on the LMR under the wires falls into that interest bubble, but more accurately late 1962 in Cheshire and Staffordshire when the last of the Lizzies rubbed shoulders with diesels that were just beginning to get their yellow fronts.

So, open floor to debate, discuss the possible reasons, limiting and ignoring of the yellow stripe painted on engines in the early 60's.

Known classes off the top of my head are Coronations, Scots, Jubilees, 8F and Fowler 4F What would be nice a full list of all engines that had yellow stripes, I'll dig through my notes this weekend and make up a Excel spreadsheet with engines and where possible, dates fitted.
 

Richard Spoors

Western Thunderer
Brian suggests that some reduced clearances were known to be less than safe to avoid raising overbridges. I would challenge that idea. I recall from ECML electrification that there was a minimum distance that the 25Kv had to be below the lowest point of a bridge deck and that there was a minimum distance for the contact wire above rail level. If these criteria could not be met the bridge deck was raised or rebuilt. It would be interesting to ascertain what these minimum distances were for WCML electrification in 1960 and 1974, ECML in 1988 and GWML today. Of course today Network Rail has to comply with European Interoperability standards so we can expect higher values.
Richard
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Firstly, re Mick's comments, I'd not dream of challenging the evidence. My own is that I was at Willesden on numerous occasions - in fact desperate to photograph a "Coronation" which I never succeeded in doing - well, I did in August 1964 but it's so under exposed that it's useless. Once the yellow stripe ban was in place I never saw a loco carrying the stripe, nor any of the so called "banned" classes at the south end of the LMR, between Harrow and Euston. My own visits to Willesden post 1963 were provably on 14 April 1964, unknown date August 1964, 12 September 1964, 15 November 1964, 14 Feb 1965, 14 March 1965, 1 August 1965, 22 August 1965 as those were the dates when I took photos.

My last photo of a "Coronation" to which I refer above confirms that it had no yellow stripe at that time. I believe it was applied soon after. It was "City of London" in maroon. Camden was closed to steam in September 1963 hence a "Coronation" being at Willesden in 1964. It was the last "Coronation" I saw in London.

I suspect your photo of 49413 is, in fact, rather earlier than the period we are discussing. As you see below, I took a photo of the same loco in the same place, but that was in August 1961. In fact it was withdrawn in October 1961. It was my muse for creating my own model of the same loco. However, it's true that this would be one of the yellow stripe classes of loco.

49413.  Willesden Shed Yard.  August 1961.  Alternative Final.  Photo Brian Dale copy - Copy.jpg

The classes for which I have evidence at Willesden during the dates listed above were "Britannias", Black 5s, 8Fs, LMS and BR standard 2-6-0s, Jinties, Stanier and Fairburn 2-6-4Ts, Standard Class 4 2-6-0s, 9F 2-10-0s - I may have evidence of Standard Class 5 4-6-0s within the same period. By the time the shed closed it was almost entirely Class 2 2-6-0s, 8Fs and Black 5s with the very occasional "Britannia". None of the above classes carried the yellow band.

Some data suggests that the ban applied after September 1964.

However, all the above is pretty irrelevant as the first electric trains ran from London on 12 November 1965 and the full service didn't start until 18 April 1966. It therefore seems possible that yellow stripe locos may have run south of Crewe up to last quarter of 1965. But, frankly, I dunno!

I can only repeat that, once the wires were energised, any yellow stripe loco travelling under them was red hot news in the railway press - it did happen but very, very rarely.

Thanks for your thoughts too, Richard. Please understand that, in 1964 I was a teenager with an over riding interest in steam and no knowledge or particular interest in the politics or even the technicalities of electrification. However, there were a couple of things I remember. One was that the voltage for the first mile or two out of Euston was said to be lower than 25K because the wires were lower than ideal but this is apocryphal and would need some sort of formal confirmation and also that the infrastructure was such that some compromises with overhead height had to be made. Now, the place "over there" clearly cannot be relied upon as a definitive source but there has been a discussion about the yellow stripes here yellow cabside stripes - UK Prototype Questions

One of the comments is "The issue being the reduced contact wire height at certain over bridges that weren't raised. " I've only just found this thread so it did not influence my original comment. Incidentally there's also this: "Not sure when the ban started, the Duchesses had the stripe applied whilst still working under the wires south of Crewe. I remember my favourite loco 46245 City of London so adorned at Bletchley (probably circa 1964). In fact it appears that the yellow stripe was applied to all applicable locos around August 1964.

In fact the loading gauge clearance south of Crewe was 13' 1" rather than the established standard 13' 6".

Frankly, chaps, looking up my records and trying to confirm things from 50 years ago is making my brain ache. If I come up with anything else overnight I'll post again. In the meantime we now have some facts and some surmise.

My history and memory makes this thread of huge interest to me. So does any info about yellow stripe locos working south of Crewe after September 1964 because that seems to be the critical date.

Thanks for stirring up the memory cells.

Brian
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Dad, Richard,

The bridge clearance issue led to all of the AL1-5 series locos having switching from 25kV to 6.25kV as built - the latter supply being used where there were restricted clearances. In practise, arcing was found to be less of a problem than expected and the 6.25kV sections were converted to 25kV. When the locos in these series were subsequently refurbished the ability to run on 6.25kV was completely removed.

It perhaps adds little to the debate as I can't immediately find the dates that the 6.25kV sections were abandoned, but can surmise that there was a genuine perception of arcing risks to structures (and people) that it appears was quickly realised to be unfounded.

Webb and Duncan 'AC Electric Locomotives of British Rail'; pub. David and Charles, 1979, refers. Yes, I happened to have it out for another purpose today...

Steph
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Ah thanks Steph. That does actually help. It may be that the locos ran at 6.25kV in the immediate environs of Euston rather than the line voltage being reduced. That would make sense. Or was the line voltage reduced to 6.25kV as well?

Edited comment: Sorry Steph - having re-read your comments you are saying that there were sections at a lower voltage so my memory has not entirely deserted me!
 

JimG

Western Thunderer
It perhaps adds little to the debate as I can't immediately find the dates that the 6.25kV sections were abandoned, but can surmise that there was a genuine perception of arcing risks to structures (and people) that it appears was quickly realised to be unfounded.

Steph,

The city sections of the Glasgow North Side electrification also had 6.25kV in these sections. My old friend Iain Wilkie Logan's page on the electrification makes note of this...

Glasgow Suburban Electrification

...and also reminded me of the noise in the central power car of the Class 303s when going through the voltage changeover sections, in my case at Dalmuir (front line) or Westerton (back line). :)

Jim.
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Oi bin researching again....

I've not yet found any official document referring to the lower voltage at the Euston end of the line, but if it's not so it's a common misapprehension. I just looked at Willesden Duchesses and found this statement: "Not only has it subsequently proved safe and permissible for a Stanier pacific (and various other classes) to work under the wires all the way into and out of Euston, but this is after the originally lower voltage (6.25 kV?) on the southernmost section was changed to the standard 25 kV. So this is one instance where the general modern tendency to prohibit more and more on account of supposed risks has gone the other way."

Clearly Steph is also pretty certain that there was a 6.25V section at the London end. However, the The AC Locomotive Group say: "All five classes were built with dual-voltage capability (25kV AC and 6.25kV AC for areas where sufficient clearance for 25kV wires was thought to be unavailable) - in the event the whole West Coast electrification was carried out at 25kV, and the 6.25kV changeover gear built into the transformer was never used beyond testing." So...... can we assume that the need for 6.25kV was anticipated and publicised - hence my and others' knowledge of it's putative existence - and perhaps even used on test in the London area - but converted to 25kV even before regular services began in April 1966?

Sorry about the failure to read your comments above the photo of the 7F. I went through the photos quickly and simply missed this.:oops:

Maybe the absence of any confirming and official documentation about the 6.25kV sections of the WCML is sufficient evidence, but it's always difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Just found this on Railway electrification in Great Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and as usual with Wikipedia treat with caution: During the initial electrification of parts of the network to 25 kV 50 Hz AC overhead, the initial solution to the limited clearance problems in suburban areas (due to numerous tunnels and bridges) in London and Glasgow was to use the lower voltage of 6.25 kV. Later technological improvements in insulation allowed these areas to be converted to 25 kV. The last sections of 6.25 kV were converted during the 1980s."
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Found another reference (Modern Locomotive Illustrated No. 191 'Classes 80-85') which draws out the detail of operation under the 6.25kV sections, but I'm still uncertain whether there were actually any sections in use (other than around Glasgow). I'm also treating the description with a little care - I've known that MLI doesn't always get the more technical aspects correct, even if the principle is likely to be well described.

Steph
 

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Mick,
I'd not heard the arc-eye issue you mention, but believed the issue was associated with reliability and concerns about a leading pantograph (or component, such as the carbon strip) landing on the roof of the loco if it failed.

There's also the double-heading scenario where the leading panto on the first loco and trailing panto on the second loco would be used, to give the wire some chance to stabilise before the second locos pantograph hit it.

I must admit I'm mostly quoting from European practise, but consistent assumptions may be at work here - before us it was only the French who had any meaningful experience with 25kV.

Like you I'd also like to know where those 6.25kV sections were...

Steph
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks for all the info, Mick. I now have a better understanding of where we are now, but to go back to the start of this thread, yellow striped locos were rarely seen under the wires after the last quarter of 1964, and even more rarely if ever, after the last quarter of 1965. The reasons for the ban seem to have been a lack of knowledge about the risks or (dare it be said) a political wish to be seen to eliminate steam and make the railway appear more advanced, perhaps, than it was at the time.

Unless I find more info from an impeccable or original source I'll let this rest.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Thanks Mick.

Yep - I agree we're done. Only final comment is that the 8Fs were not, as a class, yellow banded. 48773 is well documented. There is a suggestion that the top feed on this loco and, I believe 48774 and 48775 were taller than the rest of the class - or, indeed, that these locos were yellow banded in error. Certainly, and I can confirm this from my own knowledge and experience, as a class 8Fs, along with Black 5s worked under the energised wires for a while.

Brian
 

Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen

Western Thunderer
On a wet Monday afternoon I've been researching Yellow stripes in my Trains Illustrated/Modern Railways collection.

September 1964;
From September 1st several ex-LMS classes are barred from working south of Crewe. This ban arises from the energisation of furthers sections of catenary from Tring to Watford during the first week of September and from Nuneaton to Rugby believed to be scheduled for October in which the overhead lines have been installed to clear a 13ft 1in loading gauge instead of the normal 13ft 6in ........ a relaxation permitted by the Ministry of Transport to avoid rebuilding certain bridges and tunnels. The prohibited classes are 8P Coronation, 7P Royal Scot, 6P and 7P Jubilee and Patriot, class 4F 0-6-0 and class 7F LNWR 0-8-o. All the surviving locos of the classes will have a broad yellow strip painted diagonally on the cabsides to denote the prohibition on their movements south of Crewe.

October 1964
Former LMS express steam locomotives ..... continued to make irregular appearances at the London end on relief passenger, parcels and freight trains right up to the time of the ban after which the surviving steam turns were handled by class 5 4-6-0 and Britannia pacifics neither of which are affected by the restriction. The ban on certain clases applies only to former LMS locomotives and not standard classes. As might be expected one or two errors have been noted, a WD 2-8-0 and a Clan carrying the band. A query regarding the inclusion of all 4Fs when many have been rebuilt with short chimneys and lower cab roofs has been raised. The LMR confirm that some of these are only 12ft 10 5/8in high but others are 13ft 3in and presumably the whole class is banned to avoid confusion.

November 1964
All the surviving Coronation Pacifics with one exception were withdrawn on September 12th 1964.
Contrary to the report last month some WD 2-8-0 have been wrongly yellow banded the LMR confirm that some of this class overhauled at Swindon have a high top-feed which infringes the 13ft 1in loading gauge. On September 9th a Stanier 8F with yellow bands was noted at Watford uner the catenary. An A3 pacific is also reported as yellow banded.

December 1964.
No steam will work south of Crewe after 2nd January 1965.
The yellow restriction has now been noted applied to some LNER pacifics allocated to the Scottish region. Another suggestion for the blanket banning of the Class 4Fs is that they are not equipped with tender doors which would necessitate the fireman climbing into the tender to bring coal forward.

Thats all I've found so far but maybe more to come.

Mick, with regard to the GE electrification.

Article in October 1964.
In 1935 the LNER announced electrification at 1,500volts DC....... the 1939-45 war delayed the project and the Shenfield electrification was inaugurated in 1949 and subsequently to Sothend in 1956. under the 1955 Modernisation Plan it was applied to the mainline as far as Colchester and the Clacton/Walton branches and the Enfield, Bishops Stortford and Chingford lines at 6.25/25k a.c. to wich systems the earlier electrifications were also converted.
From my own recollection the Clacton/Walton branch was 25k ac and used to test new units. The Colchester London section was a mixture of 25k and then 6.25k for the inner London part of the route. I'm sure I rember from my 30 years of commuting the the upgrade to 25k for the whole route was made with the introduction of the Class 86 locomotives, subscribing to your theory that they only ever operated at 25k. I can certainly rember lound crashes and bangs from the catenary but that was probably on entering and leaving neutral sections.

All fun and games to research, corrections gladly welcomed:)

Tim
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
You've been sitting there quietly watching the rest of us remembering stuff wrongly, haven't you Tim? Come on, own up!

Seriously though, your info gives some structure to the info we believe we know. It agrees with my belief that the yellow band was applied very quickly to the classes mentioned and I'd have said August until I read your reference although I'd have found it difficult to confirm without your kind contribution.

Brian
 

Tim Humphreys ex Mudhen

Western Thunderer
Brian,
I sit here quietly admiring and being fascinated by the amount of information some of you have and share with us all. So I decided to get off my bum and try to verify some of the stuff that whirrs round in my head. A fascinating couple of hours ensued gathering together information from print sources to confirm or deny my memories. There is still some work going on with regard to electrification on the LMS and GER. I'm fortunate to meet up with Mickoo once a month at the Sudbury S7 group where we often kick ideas around, some even involving railways. He has a great advantage in that he has youth and therefore a good memory on his side. I live with the old adage that if you can remember the 60s you were n't there.
:)

Tim
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Just as a follow up.... In my photo collection I have pics of 45690 and 45699 (both Jubilees) at Barry in November 1967 and November 1968. 45690 was withdrawn 31st March 1964 and has no stripe. 45699 was withdrawn on 21st November 1964 and has a stripe. As proof that all locos which received the yellow stripe were dealt with in September 1964 this is tenuous to say the least but certainly fits the overall view.

Brian
 

oldravendale

Western Thunderer
Oh dear..... Just turned up photos of 44123 and 44422, also at Barry and not withdrawn until 30th June 1965. Neither appears to have a yellow stripe.
 

Yorkshire Dave

Western Thunderer
Following up on the subject of 'main line' electrification (without yellow stripes and excluding London Transport and it's predecessors as it is a subject in it's own right) the first company to electrify its lines was the Lancashire & Yorkshire in 1904 in the Liverpool area. The summary of the early schemes below are from my copy of British Electric Trains by H W A Linecar published Ian Allan Ltd in 1946. I also have an interest in early electric railways both UK and European

ex LMS
Euston, Watford, Croxley Green and Rickmansworth (LNWR) - 1922-27 - 600v (later 630v) DC 3rd & 4th rail
Broad Street, Kew and Richmond (LNWR) - 1916-18 - 600v (later 630v) DC 3rd & 4th rail
Willesden and Earls Court (LNWR) - 1914-19 - 600v (later 630v) DC 3rd & 4th rail
Liverpool - Southport, Crossans and Ormskirk (L&Y) - 1904-13 - 630v (later 650v) DC 3rd rail
Wirral - Birkenhead, West Kirby and New Brighton including the Mersey line to Liverpool (LMS) - 1938 - 650v DC 3rd rail. Mersey line was 3rd & 4th rail
Manchester-Bury (L&Y) - 1913-16 - 1,200v DC side contact 3rd rail
Manchester South Junction and Altrincham (LMS & LNER) - 1931 - 1,500v DC overhead
Lancaster, Morecambe and Heysham (MR) - 1908 - 6,600v AC single phase 25 cycles overhead

ex LNER
North Tyneside (including Quayside branch) (NER) - 1904-17 - 600v DC 3rd rail
South Tyneside (LNER) - 1938 - 600v DC 3rd rail

The NER also had plans to electrify it's line from Newcastle to York using the 1,500v DC overhead system . The bridges were also raised in anticipation as well as building the electric loco No. 13.

Manchester, Sheffield and Wath and Liverpool Street - Shenfield electrification schemes were conceived by the LNER using 1,500v DC overhead and completed by BR as Tim alluded to earlier.

ex SR
LBSC South London Lines (powers granted in 1903) - 1909, Crystal Palace - 1911 - 6,600v AC single phase 25 cycles overhead
LSWR Waterloo, East Putney and Wimbledon - 1915, Hounslow Loop - 1916 - 660v DC 3rd rail

The SR and it's successors continued electrification up to the relatively recent East Grinstead, Uckfield and Bournemouth - Weymouth schemes

The SECR also had electrification powers granted for their inner suburban lines in 1903 and their plan was to used 1,200v DC side contact 3rd rail

Other early schemes were:
The Liverpool Overhead Railway - electric from the start in 1893 - 500v DC 3rd rail
The Cruden Bay Electric Tamway (GNSR) - 1899
The Grimsby and Immingham Light Railway (GCR) - 1913 - 575v DC overhead
The Mersey Railway - 1903 - 650v DC 3rd & 4th rail
The Swansea and Mumbles Railway - 1929 - 650v DC overhead
The Glasgow Subway - 1935 (converted from cable traction) - 570v DC 3rd rail
The Southend-on-Sea Electric Railway - 1889 - 500v DC
South Shields, Marsden and Whitburn Colliery - 1907 - 540/570v DC overhead

This is just a snapshot and any correcting or additional information will be welcome.
 
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