2mm Holywell Town.

[Overseer]

It has been linked to on WT before but there are a couple of drawings of LNWR turnout parts at http://www.oldpway.info/opw_drawings.html which are probably relevant. Interesting that jbail's drawing confirms that the LNWR referred to the point (or switch) blades as 'points', which seems to have been the common name at the time. When did points become switches? Dempsey in the 1855 edition of The Practical Railway Engineer refers to 'switch tongues' but this doesn't seem to have caught on in general use.

How were goods workings to Holywell Town operated? All the references seem to agree that the trains were pushed up the line to Holywell Town but shunting by locomotive seems to be nearly impossible due to the short headshunt. Were horses used or were the gradients used to roll wagons into the sidings? And out again? It is interesting that it looks like the points on the main line are connected to the catch points in the siding but the siding off the loop has only a simple throw over lever.

I will admit to hoping this layout was going to be Scale7 but it should be a gem in 2mmFS.

 

[Dog Star]

A closer look at the LNWR 1909 PW drawings shows the possibility of having to alter the position of some chairs a couple of timbers after the last block chairs of the switch assembly implying the possible need for interlaced timbers.

With the greatest of respect, I believe that your interpretation of the drawing is not correct.

In late Victorian days the L&NWR appeared to use 14" wide timbers throughout a turnout (rather than under only the crossing nose / switch toe) and this width enabled the PW engineers to use a narrow chair rather than a range of switch block chairs... the narrow chairs were 7" width and two would sit side-by-side on the wide timber. I have found only one photo which shows this clearly and a handful more where rose-tints need to be applied. This characteristic feature of 19th century L&NWR S&C work can be seen in a photo of track alongside Shrewsbury depot (Pilcher, a book of photos by the L&NWRS... a truly magnificent publication and worthwhile as a view of the railway in the Edwardian era, so just so for Holywell Town).

Hartley Hill includes this feature and a photograph of the work can be seen here. Another feature of this period is the combined slide and plain line chair underneath the toe of the switch, this has been modelled and is to be seen in that post.

 

[daifly]

I suspect that Graham might have been intending to link to this or possibly this

 

[queensquare]

This detail about the finer points of LNWR track is very interesting but is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to in my previous post - its about as useful as a chocolate teapot. It may well be worthwhile in 7mm but not in 2mm. What you can do in 2mm is place the station in the landscape and display it in its proper context, something you can't in 7mm.

Jerry

 

[Dog Star]

I suspect that Graham might have been intending to link to this or possibly this

Thank you Dave, I intended to link to this first of the two posts - both of your links are required reading for those wishing to model Victorian L&NWR trackwork

 

[adrian]

This detail about the finer points of LNWR track is very interesting but is exactly the kind of thing I was referring to in my previous post - its about as useful as a chocolate teapot. It may well be worthwhile in 7mm but not in 2mm.

I whole heartedly agree and I hope I can recognise the trap. It's why I said I hope that I would be something completely different. I'm always interested in the technical side of things but at the end of the day the pointwork is just going to be rail soldered to PCB strip from the 2mmFS shop and I haven't a clue whether they are 12" or 14" wide timbers. The chairs are just going to be a blob of solder, although on the test track I built I struggled to get any blobby solder so I'm just experimenting with a cocktail stick putting dots of PVA glue on the outside to give some sort of impression of chairs. I'll interlace the PCB sleepers between the switch and the crossing as I think it is a visible characteristic - I've been looking at Anthony Yeate's blog for inspiration.
http://ayeates2mm.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/track-3.html
A lot of the main curve will also be PCB construction as it has a check rail to be fitted and the rest will use easitrac.

 

[queensquare]

My chocolate teapot post may sound a little harsh - apologies if so it certainly wasn't meant to be. In 7mm these details are worth while, 2mm uses a much broader brush. The thing to avoid is over scale items that shout at you - if it's too small to make to scale, leave it off.

A little story. As many of you will know I operate my layouts from the front, two main reasons. Firstly I want the best view not one peering over the top of a back scene and secondly I get to chat with the public which I enjoy - most of the time!

Several years ago whilst operating Highbury I had the misfortune to be cornered by an exhibition bore - we've all come across them. He preceded to tell me how my track looked marvellous and that rail soldered to PCB looked dreadful and only track with a proper representation of the correct chairs etc looked any good. I let him steadily dig his hole and waited for the inevitable question, " so, how do you do your track" he asked. "Rail soldered to PCB I replied". He made his excuses and slipped away!

For pointwork my standard method is now rail soldered to PCB with a little chair-plate slipped between as this raises the level to match easitrac for plain track. The chair plates are just little slips of brass or nickel silver which represent the chair base and are available from the Association. All the track work on Tucking Mill and most on Bath is done this way. If anyone is interested I will be doing a demo at the Yate show in a couple of weeks time and will have some with me.

Jerry

 

[jbail]

I wonder if any passenger carrying stock ever entered that turnout in a facing direction to require a facing point lock?

Jim.

According to what I,ve read in various publications the head shunt would not take a passenger vehicle. It was presumably installed before the plan to tunnel beneath the town and extend the line was abandoned. Had this gone ahead then the FPL would have been required.
It was only possible to shunt the yard from the loop.

 

[Dan Randall]

Have you made much/any progress on Holywell Town recently Adrian?


Regards

Dan

 

[adrian]

Hi,

I've made a little progress on bits and pieces but nothing to show for it.

Still in the research stage - I had contacted the LNWR society who have kindly uploaded a few photographs of Holywell to their zenfolio site so that I could order them.
http://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/search.html?q=holywell

The track work has been drawn up in a few sections in Templot, I couldn't get it looking right all in one file so I've created a couple of main sections and the rest will go in by eye.

The woodwork for the baseboard has eventually been cut and now I'm just waiting for a dry day to assemble it. Unfortunately with no garage or shed to work in so it has to be done outside in the back yard - hence the weather dependency. So I've been building up the power unit for a rail motor. Hopefully start a 2mm workbench thread for that and a couple of other bits I've been working on.

 

[David Varley]

Just having a read of a few threads and this one caught my eye - it really is a fascinating station and will be a very interesting 2mm layout I'm sure.

Saw the reference to Coal Tanks as well - I'm in touch with John Redrup at London Road Models at the moment about the possibility of getting his etches shrunk down to 2mm scale - not sure how much we'd be talking about yet and I'm still trying to find out if there's enough interest to get it off the ground - let me know if you'd be interested?

Regards,

David V.

 

[john lewsey]

Hi David I'll definately have one
Regards
John

 

[David Varley]

OK John - will keep you posted as to progess.

Regards,

David

 

[adrian]

Me too!! I was planning on scratch building one but if there are some etches available then I'd be interested. Much prefer them in nickel-silver rather than brass if possible.

 

[adrian]

Hi, the usual glacial progress from me as I'm usually juggling a dozen different things at the same time. May and June being particularly busy sorting out camps and activities for the Beaver Scouts. Had a great few weekends getting kids out into the outdoors and sleeping under canvas but I have been ticking along with the modelling.

David seems to have been busy with progressing the Coal Tank etches for which I've put my name down for a couple - hopefully he can get something sorted for the chassis but I don't mind building my own if need be. However that and a recent flying visit to the 2mm Expo at Chelford has prompted me to post a status update, it's not a lot but things are moving forward.

For Holywell Town I have got the main baseboard built, I've used 6mm ply. First experiments with screws to build up the frame showed great problems with the screws splitting the plywood. So this is built entirely with panel pins and copious quantities of glue!! Now I just need to tidy up some of the edges but it does show quite well what a 1:27 gradient looks like. I'm quite pleased with the drop on the approach as it is at least the height of a loco in 2mm plus a bit. If this causes a problem with locos climbing the grade then I might build it up a bit to lessen the gradient.

Following my visit to the 2mm Expo and having seen what Ian had done with Modbury I had a few ideas about how to build the back scene and lighting. I had a chat with Ian about the merits of a painted back scene verses a photo back scene and I did like what Ian had done. So at the moment I'm erring towards a painted back scene. The orientation of Holywell means that it is looking out over the estuary so in the background it should just be sky and clouds. Also for the lighting I know Jerry favours getting the it sorted out early on so that any painting or weathering is done under the lighting conditions it will be viewed under. So I've got some flexible ply and I'm experimenting with heights and working out fixing arrangements. I'm still trying to decide whether to just pin and glue it or to bolt it in place to make it removable.

 

[David Varley]

Nothing like a bare baseboard to get one all aquiver!

Nice curves as well

Presumably all of the station area's going to fit on the one board?

Things are looking promising on the Coal Tank front by the way. Requests for 20 sets of etches so far and hoping that Chris Higgs might be up for doing a custom etch for the chassis.

 

[Neil]

.... I had a chat with Ian about the merits of a painted back scene verses a photo back scene and I did like what Ian had done. So at the moment I'm erring towards a painted back scene. The orientation of Holywell means that it is looking out over the estuary so in the background it should just be sky and clouds. .....]

Might I respectfully suggest the background should be sky and no clouds.

Clouds present a couple of problems. The practical one is that you have to be bloody good with a paintbrush to paint a convincing cloud; I've seen far more turkeys than convincing ones. On an ordinary back scene there's an order of recession, through the transitional area of 3-d things hard against the back scene, through the painted landscape and into the distant vastness of the sky. Clouds, even good ones, (this applies to photo back scenes too) tend to pull the sky forward and therefore work against the illusion of depth and distance that you're trying to create.

 

[adrian]

Presumably all of the station area's going to fit on the one board?

Yes - all of the station and scenics will all be on the one board.

Might I respectfully suggest the background should be sky and no clouds.

No problem at all with the suggestion - that's one of the reasons I post hoping I get constructive feedback. I will admit not having given it much thought but was a little apprehensive about the clouds as I would probably make a pigs ear of it anyway.

So I really like your suggestion, although even a clear sky seems to be a challenge as there is a graduation to the colour to get right, getting lighter as you approach the horizon.
http://www.betterphoto.com/gallery/...836&catID=&style=&rowNumber=4&memberID=460097

 

[PMP]

I'm sort of yes and no, with Neils comments. Clouds are undoubtedly difficult to do, and bad ones are worse than no cloud. However they can reduce the intensity of a cobalt blue sky adding depth to the scene. The blue in the sky will/can give a natural recession and depth, the more intense the blue, the further forward it comes. Your linked pic above is also taken close to mid day, the lack of shadow indicates a high sun and the ambient light also has an effect on the backscene and how dominant it is. If using the linked image as an example, the lighting would need to be very bright, where I've used photo backscenes blue has been added to add the recession, I've done similar using paint too.
https://albionyard.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/b6o4472-cr2-001.jpg

If the wood is going to be the face of the backscene for painting be wary of the wood grain showing under harsh lighting (especially with 2mm), it may be worth considering a lining paper covering to reduce that impact.

 

[David Varley]

Given that it's Wales, should there be any blue sky? Shouldn't it just be a very dark grey?