lancer1027
Western Thunderer
Hi Adrian, nice footage.
The blue 40 looks great
Rob
The blue 40 looks great
Rob
Hartley Hills, LNWR c1900 - buffer stops, how do you build yours?
- Thread starter Dog Star
- Start date
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Lovely thread: seem to have been otherwise occupied with an excess of work during most of it.
In our case, the value of 1-cos is fixed - it is the track gauge.
Essentially, you take the angle of the vee, e.g. 1 in 8, and express it as a fraction, e.g. 0.125.
This is then used in the inverse tangent function to obtain theta (the angle) from which...
I say, wake up there!
HTH.
*It has been** argued that in extreme situations, an iceberg can used instead.
**By me. But I was, of course, extremely drunk...
Actually, if I can find it, there are some useful references about all this in Greenly's "Model Railways", but the easiest way to calculate the offsets is to pick up the letters that followed the layout planning article in MRJ 71, and feed the formula into a spreadsheet. You need the letters as Martin used 1/2 as an approximation (fine for small amounts of curvature) whereas one should be using 1/√2...
You may not have gone to bed yet, but you might be asleep.
Needless to say, if my maths lessons had been couched in terms of railway geometry, I might have paid more attention.
Versine is 1- cos.*
In our case, the value of 1-cos is fixed - it is the track gauge.
Essentially, you take the angle of the vee, e.g. 1 in 8, and express it as a fraction, e.g. 0.125.
This is then used in the inverse tangent function to obtain theta (the angle) from which...
I say, wake up there!
HTH.
*It has been** argued that in extreme situations, an iceberg can used instead.
**By me. But I was, of course, extremely drunk...
Actually, if I can find it, there are some useful references about all this in Greenly's "Model Railways", but the easiest way to calculate the offsets is to pick up the letters that followed the layout planning article in MRJ 71, and feed the formula into a spreadsheet. You need the letters as Martin used 1/2 as an approximation (fine for small amounts of curvature) whereas one should be using 1/√2...
You may not have gone to bed yet, but you might be asleep.
Needless to say, if my maths lessons had been couched in terms of railway geometry, I might have paid more attention.
Wagonman
Western Thunderer
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
No - it was Greenly's book! (Belongs to my father, it was a prize at school for 3-D drawing.)
Buckjumper
Flying Squad
What is the music ? reminds me of Mark Founds Railway Channel.......nice change from the usual musak
I don't know Phill - I'll have to ask Heather. It's got a little more bite than the usual Now That's What I Call Easy Listening Vol. 33 stuff that usually gets played.
Buckjumper
Flying Squad
I don't feel as though I should be at the back of the class...more like somewhere in the pencil cupboard with the dunce hat on.
At least I'm not completely thick and got the joke...
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Whilst I started this thread and continue to be the main source of information on progress of the layout, after all the Hartley Hill Examiner is not always on hand to record events, the thread will one day move on from trackwork to the environs within which the trains will operate. Very much in the style of the Heyside thread. When that happens the baton for posts and humour will be passed to John. In the meantime we need to explore new techniques for various structure on the layout and canvas the opinions of other WT readers... for this is one of the best parts of WT - an on-line academy of advice and comment.
Two aspects of the surroundings were discussed when the Chief Civil Engineer made an inspection of the new works last week - maybe even travelling in one of those very nice Inspection Coaches by Resseldar - being:-
* stonework;
* bridges.
I am taken with the stone structures on Heyside and some Depron has been obtained for practice. John asked a question which is worth airing here... how is Depron used for those stone walls where some of the stone work stands proud of the surrounding surface?
There is to be a bridge across the main lines and the goods yard, something approaching 3 feet in length, and the footbridge over Coventry yard comes to mind. Whilst the original intention was the the bridge to carry road traffic changing to a footbridge is attractive becasue the structure becomes less dominant in the overall scene. Apart from Coventry, where else might we find a footbridge over, say, six or seven tracks?
regards, Graham
Two aspects of the surroundings were discussed when the Chief Civil Engineer made an inspection of the new works last week - maybe even travelling in one of those very nice Inspection Coaches by Resseldar - being:-
* stonework;
* bridges.
I am taken with the stone structures on Heyside and some Depron has been obtained for practice. John asked a question which is worth airing here... how is Depron used for those stone walls where some of the stone work stands proud of the surrounding surface?
There is to be a bridge across the main lines and the goods yard, something approaching 3 feet in length, and the footbridge over Coventry yard comes to mind. Whilst the original intention was the the bridge to carry road traffic changing to a footbridge is attractive becasue the structure becomes less dominant in the overall scene. Apart from Coventry, where else might we find a footbridge over, say, six or seven tracks?
regards, Graham
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Given the LNWR connection, I am surprised no one else has yet taken the opportunity to mention web(b) lettuces...
Adrian: just making sure you are kept in your place.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
More than two months since the last article in the Hartley Hill Examiner, something about the old hack having to spend more time on reporting the activities of the local dignitries.
The Chief Civil Engineer's report on the last inspection contained some thought-provoking suggestions.... along the lines of "what about doing this before that?". Good questions and ones which might well reduce the effort to do the mundane and difficult tasks such as staining the timbers and spreading the ballast. The result is two changes to the way in which the trackwork is being developed.
[1] sleepers and timbers are to be stained before use;
[2] ballast is to be spread and fxed in place before rails and chairs are fixed to the sleepers / timbers.
Overall this should save significant effort since prodding, poking and pushing ballast around when the rails are in the way is a mind-numbing activity. John has posted "over the fence" about his experiments with staining the walnut strip and some of the results are winging their way to me at this time.
PW way has rather sort of stopped pending conclusions on stain colour and ballast size/colour/material.... in the meantime I am completing the first turnout (which was started before the CCE discussions) as this will prove various ideas for representing the LNWR PW practices of the late 19th century.
regards, Graham
The Chief Civil Engineer's report on the last inspection contained some thought-provoking suggestions.... along the lines of "what about doing this before that?". Good questions and ones which might well reduce the effort to do the mundane and difficult tasks such as staining the timbers and spreading the ballast. The result is two changes to the way in which the trackwork is being developed.
[1] sleepers and timbers are to be stained before use;
[2] ballast is to be spread and fxed in place before rails and chairs are fixed to the sleepers / timbers.
Overall this should save significant effort since prodding, poking and pushing ballast around when the rails are in the way is a mind-numbing activity. John has posted "over the fence" about his experiments with staining the walnut strip and some of the results are winging their way to me at this time.
PW way has rather sort of stopped pending conclusions on stain colour and ballast size/colour/material.... in the meantime I am completing the first turnout (which was started before the CCE discussions) as this will prove various ideas for representing the LNWR PW practices of the late 19th century.
regards, Graham
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Postie delivered a small packet this afternoon and the contents could well be the promised sleepers!!!! The weather has not been that good today, I shall wait for a clearer, brighter, day before placing John's stained sleepers beside some that I did earlier (no Blue Peter badge though) for the record photograph. John has not disclosed either the brand of stain or which colour has been used with each sleeper... so rather like the "blindfold tasting" of long ago.
Once I have informed John of my thoughts on the colouring I shall post the photograph for general comment... not that I am expecting any contribution from General Comment, he is otherwise occupied as Chief Judge for the inaugural Yorkshire Rhubarb tasting competition.
regards, Graham
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
The weather was brighter this morning and here is a photograph of the "stained" sleepers which arrived yesterday. The timber strip at the top of the photo is walnut timber before staining... showing the grain before treatment.
These sleepers have been stained by John as part of the experiment to find a suitable "colour" which can be applied before fixing the rail and chairs and without clogging the grain. The surface texture of the sleepers in the photo shows the grain of the walnut and so the "stains" meet one of the requirements. I shall be sticking some chairs to the sleepers, using Butanone, to see what effect the solvent has upon the colouring - when doing a similar experiment for Adrian Marks we found that the solvent was affecting the shoe-dye and leaving white lines around the edge of the chairs (rather like a "bloom" at the edge of the solvent).
As of the time of posting, John has told me nothing about the products used nor how applied... other than that the four sleepers to the LHS are indian ink... the four sleepers in the centre are a "dark" brown... and the four sleepers to the RHS are a "light" brown. Hartley Hill shall show sleepers in several stages of "maturity"... or decay...
* "new" sleepers laid within the recent past, say two to three years (for the main lines);
* "old" sleepers laid between ten and fifteen years ago (for the platform roads);
* "aged" sleepers put down in the mid-Victorian period (the carriage siding).
What do you think of the colouring so far?
regards, Graham
These sleepers have been stained by John as part of the experiment to find a suitable "colour" which can be applied before fixing the rail and chairs and without clogging the grain. The surface texture of the sleepers in the photo shows the grain of the walnut and so the "stains" meet one of the requirements. I shall be sticking some chairs to the sleepers, using Butanone, to see what effect the solvent has upon the colouring - when doing a similar experiment for Adrian Marks we found that the solvent was affecting the shoe-dye and leaving white lines around the edge of the chairs (rather like a "bloom" at the edge of the solvent).
As of the time of posting, John has told me nothing about the products used nor how applied... other than that the four sleepers to the LHS are indian ink... the four sleepers in the centre are a "dark" brown... and the four sleepers to the RHS are a "light" brown. Hartley Hill shall show sleepers in several stages of "maturity"... or decay...
* "new" sleepers laid within the recent past, say two to three years (for the main lines);
* "old" sleepers laid between ten and fifteen years ago (for the platform roads);
* "aged" sleepers put down in the mid-Victorian period (the carriage siding).
What do you think of the colouring so far?
regards, Graham
Rob Pulham
Western Thunderer
Here's a bit of fence sitting for you. I like them all
Buckjumper
Flying Squad
I'd say the light brown ones are too red. Actually, I'd say the dark brown ones are too red. The ink stained ones look sort of like a freshly-creosoted sleeper. Sleepers were almost always baltic redwood so you're stymied by the starting colour of the walnut which will always prejudice the final result.
Untreated baltic redwood sleepers looks like this and treated/used baltic redwood sleepers look like this. I'd say the orangey/red areas on the latter are rust stains from the chairs.
To my eye stained lime or ply will produce a range of colours closer to the prototype.
Untreated baltic redwood sleepers looks like this and treated/used baltic redwood sleepers look like this. I'd say the orangey/red areas on the latter are rust stains from the chairs.
To my eye stained lime or ply will produce a range of colours closer to the prototype.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
A picture is worth a thousand words...
I have made progress with the Up Loop to Up Main turnout, excrutiatingly slow progress, and the captions explain some of the ups and downs of trying to build LNWR pre-1900 S&C work.
Photo 1 shows the toe of the switch... a loose heel switch blade with the toe supported by a real odd-ball of a fitting, rather like a marriage between a plain chair and a slide chair. Not available from any of the usual suppliers and unlikely to feature on any wish list... you do not want to know how many bits went ping in the making of just this one chair. I still have to make the corresponding chairfor the other switch rail. Thankkfully, there is just one more pre-1900 turnout at Hartley Hill and that is from the Down Loop to the Carriage Siding.
Photo 2 shows the same part of the turnout as photo 1, this time with the switch open to show how the switch toe tucks up against the jaw of the plain chair. The most difficult task so far has been training the gerbils to make nice neat holes for the drive rods from the under board Fulgurex to the above board switch blades.
Photo 3 has moved along the turnout towards the crossing... and shows the closure rail. Yet another "feature" of LNWR pre-1900 S&C practice was the use of 14" wide timbers and the absence of the expected "Bridge" or L1 chair. Where one might expect to see a bridge chair, as the closure rail approached the stock rail and thereby reduced the available space for plain line chairs, the LNWR used chairs which were considerably narrower than normal and hence enabled the closure and stock rails to be supported on separate chairs placed side by side on the same timber. The narrow chairs in this photo, where the timbers are marked "N", measure 0.160" in width... and at that there is b****r all holding the two jaws together. Failure rate is about 50% for these chairs so not for those of a nervous disposition, there are 24 of these narrow chairs in this turnout so a good thing that the majority of S&C work for Hartley Hill is the later circa 1909 arrangements.
Photo 4 shows the heel of the switch rail. "Loose heel switch" means that the switch rail can move relative to the closure rail because the fishplates at the heel joint are not tight. As a result of the loose heel joint, an "open" switch rail has a dog-leg appearance at the joint.
I have made the joint by using Exactoscale cast brass fishplates... soldered to the switch rail and pinned to the closure rail. As the switch rail can move in the heel joint then the only "block" chair for the switch rail has to allow for sideways movement in the switch. Yet again there is nothing to do the job from the manufacturers so I have made the block chair.
Starting with a plain line chair for the stock rail, cut away the base on the inside of the chair leaving the inner jaw, this is the first part of the block chair... then trim the base from the outside of another plain line chair which is on the switch rail and glue the two pieces together jaw-to-jaw. Now remove the switch rail... and remove the innermost jaw from the second part of the block chair. Replace the switch rail... set the rail in the open position... fit a replacement inner jaw against the switch rail without pressing the switch rail against the previous two bits-stuck-together - this produces a three-part block chair with space for two rails, the stock rail being held firm whilst the switch rail is free to rotate about the heel pivot. If you are following this then you have every right to doubt my sanity - or ask for a photo essay when I do the next one.
In this photo the final piece of the block chair is not yet fixed.... because if it was fixed then the adjacent loose heel joint would prevent the switch rail from being removed..... and I need to remove the switch rail to fit the stretcher bar as and when Colin advises on fitting the insulation to the drop link.
Apart from another pre-1900 turnout in the down loop the remainder of the S&C work is fairly easy... although those of you who have been reading the Hartley Hill Examiner may remember that Ganger Albert had a paddy just before he eloped with the barmaid. The local Civil Engineer had issued a work order for another turnout in the Up Goods line and the details required that Albert inserted the new turnout into the formation with minimum possession. As I recall, Albert was grunting and groaning (like an A-class) because the work order necessitated that the new turnout was constructed with interleaved sleepers between the switches and the crossing. So more research into what Albert did and what he recorded in his little black book.
regards, Graham
(I post the photos first and then edit the post to add the captions... amazed that this post got two likes before I had started the text!)
I have made progress with the Up Loop to Up Main turnout, excrutiatingly slow progress, and the captions explain some of the ups and downs of trying to build LNWR pre-1900 S&C work.
Photo 1 shows the toe of the switch... a loose heel switch blade with the toe supported by a real odd-ball of a fitting, rather like a marriage between a plain chair and a slide chair. Not available from any of the usual suppliers and unlikely to feature on any wish list... you do not want to know how many bits went ping in the making of just this one chair. I still have to make the corresponding chairfor the other switch rail. Thankkfully, there is just one more pre-1900 turnout at Hartley Hill and that is from the Down Loop to the Carriage Siding.
Photo 2 shows the same part of the turnout as photo 1, this time with the switch open to show how the switch toe tucks up against the jaw of the plain chair. The most difficult task so far has been training the gerbils to make nice neat holes for the drive rods from the under board Fulgurex to the above board switch blades.
Photo 3 has moved along the turnout towards the crossing... and shows the closure rail. Yet another "feature" of LNWR pre-1900 S&C practice was the use of 14" wide timbers and the absence of the expected "Bridge" or L1 chair. Where one might expect to see a bridge chair, as the closure rail approached the stock rail and thereby reduced the available space for plain line chairs, the LNWR used chairs which were considerably narrower than normal and hence enabled the closure and stock rails to be supported on separate chairs placed side by side on the same timber. The narrow chairs in this photo, where the timbers are marked "N", measure 0.160" in width... and at that there is b****r all holding the two jaws together. Failure rate is about 50% for these chairs so not for those of a nervous disposition, there are 24 of these narrow chairs in this turnout so a good thing that the majority of S&C work for Hartley Hill is the later circa 1909 arrangements.
Photo 4 shows the heel of the switch rail. "Loose heel switch" means that the switch rail can move relative to the closure rail because the fishplates at the heel joint are not tight. As a result of the loose heel joint, an "open" switch rail has a dog-leg appearance at the joint.
I have made the joint by using Exactoscale cast brass fishplates... soldered to the switch rail and pinned to the closure rail. As the switch rail can move in the heel joint then the only "block" chair for the switch rail has to allow for sideways movement in the switch. Yet again there is nothing to do the job from the manufacturers so I have made the block chair.
Starting with a plain line chair for the stock rail, cut away the base on the inside of the chair leaving the inner jaw, this is the first part of the block chair... then trim the base from the outside of another plain line chair which is on the switch rail and glue the two pieces together jaw-to-jaw. Now remove the switch rail... and remove the innermost jaw from the second part of the block chair. Replace the switch rail... set the rail in the open position... fit a replacement inner jaw against the switch rail without pressing the switch rail against the previous two bits-stuck-together - this produces a three-part block chair with space for two rails, the stock rail being held firm whilst the switch rail is free to rotate about the heel pivot. If you are following this then you have every right to doubt my sanity - or ask for a photo essay when I do the next one.
In this photo the final piece of the block chair is not yet fixed.... because if it was fixed then the adjacent loose heel joint would prevent the switch rail from being removed..... and I need to remove the switch rail to fit the stretcher bar as and when Colin advises on fitting the insulation to the drop link.
Apart from another pre-1900 turnout in the down loop the remainder of the S&C work is fairly easy... although those of you who have been reading the Hartley Hill Examiner may remember that Ganger Albert had a paddy just before he eloped with the barmaid. The local Civil Engineer had issued a work order for another turnout in the Up Goods line and the details required that Albert inserted the new turnout into the formation with minimum possession. As I recall, Albert was grunting and groaning (like an A-class) because the work order necessitated that the new turnout was constructed with interleaved sleepers between the switches and the crossing. So more research into what Albert did and what he recorded in his little black book.
regards, Graham
(I post the photos first and then edit the post to add the captions... amazed that this post got two likes before I had started the text!)
Simon
Flying Squad
Thank you very much for posting your pictures, I love the way you are modifying things and actually modelling the track as it "should be" rather than as a generic type.
Seeing your work even makes me feel like unearthing my old wardrobe door, fixing my C10 templot plan on it and starting to build the two turnouts that the garden line so badly needs to progress.
Ironically although I'm in a bigger scale my choice of components is much reduced compared to 7mm or 4mm scales!
Anyway, keep up the good work and thank you again for the pictures
Simon
Seeing your work even makes me feel like unearthing my old wardrobe door, fixing my C10 templot plan on it and starting to build the two turnouts that the garden line so badly needs to progress.
Ironically although I'm in a bigger scale my choice of components is much reduced compared to 7mm or 4mm scales!
Anyway, keep up the good work and thank you again for the pictures
Simon
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Please think through how a turnout is to be constructed before starting... plan where and how the electrical feeds are to be made... how the polarity of the crossing is to be "managed"... how the stretchers are to be made/sourced... and how the switch blades are to be driven -all these points influence the actual task of laying the rails.
Even think through the possibility of extending the stock rails beyond the ends of the turnout as that eases the task of forming the curve in the stock rails.
regards, Graham