richard carr
Western Thunderer
Well done Brian, I didn't realise from reading the earlier posts that that was the required solution, its a bit of bu**er to say the least.
Richard
Richard
Building an Ace Kits "K"
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
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- Tags
- 7mm kit building lb&scr locos
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Unless the error is known or found out at the outset and corrected beforehand bodging can be the only solution.
In this case I would have approached it in the same way but instead of matching a curve to a curve I would have scribed the curve onto a new piece of brass for the outer edge and cut the old frame edge square to make the mounting of the new section easier.
Nevertheless the experience of your K build provides a salutatory lesson for all of us, or to me at least, to check drawings and photographs meticulously.
It's amazing how many erroneous kits there are out there.
Looking forward to the rest of the build.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for your comment, David. I didn't think about removing the section which would actually have been a good plan as I could then have made the new part precisely the correct shape. (Well, with my skills at metal cutting probably nearly the right shape). In view of this I probably attacked it in the most complicated way possible.
I wonder whether that would have been possible to remove the whole section, though, with the frames already made up. Springs and hangers are in place too, and as they are white metal may have been a bit difficult to remove. The trick here is to do as you said and check before soldering anything up! Having said which, I'm not certain I'd have found this error as the GA is very jumbled with brake gear, cylinder etc all coming together at this location. I have no doubt that there'll be more bodging yet to come! Watch this space.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Well, I dunnit. Built the brake gear, that is.
There's little more to be said, except that there are quite a number of photos below. These are interpreted direct from the GA, but the area around the front of the chassis is very congested and I'm uncertain about some of the fixings. However I'm pretty confident about the positioning of the rods, the tender hand brake and it's position below the footplate.
Have a look at these, chaps and chapesses, and let me know whether these will pass muster. I've yet to fix anything in place so this is my last opportunity to finalise things.
Brian
There's little more to be said, except that there are quite a number of photos below. These are interpreted direct from the GA, but the area around the front of the chassis is very congested and I'm uncertain about some of the fixings. However I'm pretty confident about the positioning of the rods, the tender hand brake and it's position below the footplate.
Have a look at these, chaps and chapesses, and let me know whether these will pass muster. I've yet to fix anything in place so this is my last opportunity to finalise things.
Brian
warren haywood
Western Thunderer
Congratulations Brian, you deserve a medal
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
It looks much better Brian. I don't know what constitutes 'right' on a K tender, but you must be pleased with the results of your labours.
One thing I would do is scratchbuild a new brake handle from rod, tube and wire. Otherwise....well, you know what will happen.
Cheers
Richard
One thing I would do is scratchbuild a new brake handle from rod, tube and wire. Otherwise....well, you know what will happen.
Cheers
Richard
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oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Richard and Warren.
Yes, my intention is to make the brake handle in brass. In fact I don't think the one in the kit is "right" and I'll work from the drawings. I may have to use the white metal body but the majority will be in brass. I forgot to mention in my post above that the white metal version is fitted "dry" to show the way it drives through the footplate to the brake assembly below.
Sadly I've still not found a photo of the tender footplate, and even the rebuild on the Bluebell has no photos.
Brian
Yes, my intention is to make the brake handle in brass. In fact I don't think the one in the kit is "right" and I'll work from the drawings. I may have to use the white metal body but the majority will be in brass. I forgot to mention in my post above that the white metal version is fitted "dry" to show the way it drives through the footplate to the brake assembly below.
Sadly I've still not found a photo of the tender footplate, and even the rebuild on the Bluebell has no photos.
Brian
Overseer
Western Thunderer
It looks better and I know nothing about K tenders but based on other air braked tenders it can't be completely right. The forces involved in applying the brakes are extreme and there must be more brackets to carry the cross shafts, especially the one the hand brake connects to otherwise they would just bend instead of applying the brakes. Or maybe the lever to the main brake shaft should be further out so it is next to the hand brake linkage. Sorry this in not very helpful. I could show examples of other tenders but they might just cause confusion as they will be differently arranged to yours.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I'm sure you are correct, which is one of the reasons I asked for comments. I think I'll just have to take another look at the GA and see if I can make any more sense of it. Of course, it may be the kit design, but I can see no means of locating the cross shafts in to any sort of bracket apart from the obvious one on the outside tender frames.
Hmm! Dunno what to do here, so may be make the shafts look OK from outside, bearing in mind there's a step each side to go on the front of the tender and with the loco coupled it'll be very dark under there. Hopefully it'll just look like a jumble of rods. From any one view point it'll be difficult if not impossible to trace what connects with what. Nevertheless, I'll try a review of the drawing.
Brian
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Dad,
There may be additional brackets on the inner frames of the prototype; I'm not sure. One thing I am sure of though is that the shaft all the brake cranks are attached to is very weedy, is expect it to be at least 3" in diameter. Can you sleeve it up somehow?
Might be worth another quick scurry through the early web pages of the Brighton Atlantic group.
And the brake handle is a stinker: nothing like the real thing.
Steph
There may be additional brackets on the inner frames of the prototype; I'm not sure. One thing I am sure of though is that the shaft all the brake cranks are attached to is very weedy, is expect it to be at least 3" in diameter. Can you sleeve it up somehow?
Might be worth another quick scurry through the early web pages of the Brighton Atlantic group.
And the brake handle is a stinker: nothing like the real thing.
Steph
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Hi Steph.
It's just registered with me that you sent over a selection of drawings, and so far I've been relying on the large GA I had from John Burch. I'll go through the others in the hope that there's something tender related.
By the "shaft all the brake cranks are attached to" are you referring to the cross shaft which runs across between the two outside front brackets - the ones I moved? If so I should have mentioned that this will be removable so that the brake gear associated with the Westinghouse cylinder can be removed with the tender inside frame. It will, therefore, be sleeved with mains wire insulation to hold it in place. You'll see in the photos that the ends are sleeved as a temporary fix.
As mentioned earlier, brake handle is up for a rebuild!
It's just registered with me that you sent over a selection of drawings, and so far I've been relying on the large GA I had from John Burch. I'll go through the others in the hope that there's something tender related.
By the "shaft all the brake cranks are attached to" are you referring to the cross shaft which runs across between the two outside front brackets - the ones I moved? If so I should have mentioned that this will be removable so that the brake gear associated with the Westinghouse cylinder can be removed with the tender inside frame. It will, therefore, be sleeved with mains wire insulation to hold it in place. You'll see in the photos that the ends are sleeved as a temporary fix.
As mentioned earlier, brake handle is up for a rebuild!
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Soooo.... Just checked the tender drawings again on the PC so have been able to blow up the questioned area to a significant degree. Unfortunately I can still not identify any brackets.
I think now is the time to press head with the build and have another look at the brake area around the Westinghouse cylinder at a later date. Maybe, just maybe, something will crop up which will give me the divine guidance I need. If not I'll have time to think about how I may fit brackets for the presently unsupported shafts or, indeed, whether the whole lot is so compromised by the steps and loco that further modification is not necessary.
Brian
I think now is the time to press head with the build and have another look at the brake area around the Westinghouse cylinder at a later date. Maybe, just maybe, something will crop up which will give me the divine guidance I need. If not I'll have time to think about how I may fit brackets for the presently unsupported shafts or, indeed, whether the whole lot is so compromised by the steps and loco that further modification is not necessary.
Brian
Overseer
Western Thunderer
I will try to find some illustrations to explain how it works. In the meantime, the end result will be simpler than you have put together. There will only be one cross shaft, the main one mounted in the bearings on the side frames and it will have 4 arms projecting from it - one long one with a clevis end in line with the centre of the brake cylinder (and connected to the rod from the bottom of the cylinder), another long one in line with the hand brake with a threaded trunnion so turning the brake handle raises or lowers the lever and rotates the cross shaft, and two short arms, one each side in line with the brake pull rods. There may or may not be an intermediate bearing or two.
The simple solution to give an impression of what should be there will be to move one of the long arms out to line up with the hand brake and trim of the superfluous wire cross shafts.
The simple solution to give an impression of what should be there will be to move one of the long arms out to line up with the hand brake and trim of the superfluous wire cross shafts.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Overseer.
I'll look at the potential for simplifying the set up. Wonder if you'd have a look at the drawing via a PM to see if you can make head or tail of it?
Brian
I'll look at the potential for simplifying the set up. Wonder if you'd have a look at the drawing via a PM to see if you can make head or tail of it?
Brian
Overseer
Western Thunderer
Happy to, send it through. I am heading off to the beach for a week so will have limited Internet but shouldn't be a problem.
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Overseer is correct about the brake cross shaft and lever arrangement being simpler. I've checked these on my LBSC E4 and your drawings posted earlier in the thread.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Overseer. Drawing on the way now.
David - looking at the pictures above I believe I have the fulcrum bars in approximately the correct place and of the correct size and shape. The hand brake rod is also correct. The problem I'm having is in locating where then supporting brackets should be.
Any thoughts?
Brian
David - looking at the pictures above I believe I have the fulcrum bars in approximately the correct place and of the correct size and shape. The hand brake rod is also correct. The problem I'm having is in locating where then supporting brackets should be.
Any thoughts?
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Fraser.
It's immediately obvious how I've over complicated the set up, mainly because I've interpreted the brake cross shaft levers as full length rather than two separate sections, one back towards the cylinder and the other towards the hand brake. When I have the opportunity to get some more time in the workshop I'll amend my set up. There will certainly be a good deal less wire hanging under the loco!
That is all very helpful and I'm most grateful. Enjoy the beach!
Brian
It's immediately obvious how I've over complicated the set up, mainly because I've interpreted the brake cross shaft levers as full length rather than two separate sections, one back towards the cylinder and the other towards the hand brake. When I have the opportunity to get some more time in the workshop I'll amend my set up. There will certainly be a good deal less wire hanging under the loco!
That is all very helpful and I'm most grateful. Enjoy the beach!
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
I've spent three or four afternoons in the workshop building detail parts which are either wrong or not included. It seems like a lot of hours for little progress!
This is where I am now. The vacuum pipe, steam heat pipe and Westinghouse pipe are obvious as those on the right. The lamp irons will be equally obvious, and these have been modified from lost wax castings. I've included the as yet unmodified brake rodding which will be corrected in accordance with Fraser's recommendations. Then, from the left is a pair of tarpaulin struts, the fire iron post (it has a ring on the top and a cross bar which prevents the irons falling on to the tool box so is more complex than it appears), a pair of control rods which fit inside the coal space (the handles made from 1mm rod, beaten at the end, drilled 1mm and shaped by hand using files) and above them a pair of brackets to fit them to the coal plate. Finally there's the rebuilt hand brake (and before anyone says the Brighton hand brake was not this shape the construction was made using the GA as the reference) and the hand brake rod which continues through the floor and joins up with the brake rodding which is where we came in.
I doubt that I'll get in to the workshop tomorrow to finish the tender, but perhaps the day after.........
Brian
This is where I am now. The vacuum pipe, steam heat pipe and Westinghouse pipe are obvious as those on the right. The lamp irons will be equally obvious, and these have been modified from lost wax castings. I've included the as yet unmodified brake rodding which will be corrected in accordance with Fraser's recommendations. Then, from the left is a pair of tarpaulin struts, the fire iron post (it has a ring on the top and a cross bar which prevents the irons falling on to the tool box so is more complex than it appears), a pair of control rods which fit inside the coal space (the handles made from 1mm rod, beaten at the end, drilled 1mm and shaped by hand using files) and above them a pair of brackets to fit them to the coal plate. Finally there's the rebuilt hand brake (and before anyone says the Brighton hand brake was not this shape the construction was made using the GA as the reference) and the hand brake rod which continues through the floor and joins up with the brake rodding which is where we came in.
I doubt that I'll get in to the workshop tomorrow to finish the tender, but perhaps the day after.........
Brian