7mm Problems with my Heljan 31

richard carr

richard carr

Western Thunderer
I have 2 Heljan 31s and I have recently fitted them both with Lok Sound V4 XL decoders.

Running them both slowly on my test track as a light engine everything seems to work just fine, however put them on my layout and ask them to haul my parcels train consisting of 4 GUVs and 3 CCTs and its a disaster. One part of the layout they seem ok then they gradually slow down to a crawl even though the controller says 90 (out of 128). Both of them do the same thing, both have the motor set up using CV54 set to 0.
Non of other Heljan locos do this they just run round fine.

Has anyone had a similar experience or suggest anything.

Thanks

Richard
 
Cliff Williams

Cliff Williams

Western Thunderer
I find that the Heljan locos are veey slow on dcc.
Sadly you cannot rely on CV54 to 0 to get them to run, there are a whole stack of changes to be made and doing it without a lokprogrammer is a bit of a waste of time!
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Richard,
Have you done the CV54/f1 set up routine on these locos?
What happens to the sound when the locos slow down?
Steph
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Cliff Williams said:
I find that the Heljan locos are veey slow on dcc.
Sadly you cannot rely on CV54 to 0 to get them to run, there are a whole stack of changes to be made and doing it without a lokprogrammer is a bit of a waste of time!
Click to expand...
Cliff,
I'm not sure I agree with that, JMRI and SPROG (or other compatible interface) will happily juggle the drive CVs, its only the higher-order ones that JMRI can't do. You can also programme them all through a DCC system and sometimes this is easier; especially if your system offers Programming On the Main. Its all a question of how much time/persistence you want to give it!
And I've had no issues with CV54/f1 drive set-up, even with Heljan locos. On occasion I do have a further play with the drive CVs if its necessary.
Steph
 
richard carr

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Steph

Yes I used the CV54 set to 0 then F1, works just fine on the Deltic but not on both these 31s
I have a Lok programmer and looking at the setting everything seems where I would expect it to be. Analog is off, the motor settings uses back emf but only 10%.

The sound is all over the place when hauling the train, its fine light engine.

Richard
 
Cliff Williams

Cliff Williams

Western Thunderer
Steph I agree that you can make many changes with the likes of Sprog and JMRI. But they are numerical and you cannot see the changes as easily.
With lokprogrammer you can easily change the CV settings for speed curves etc, which are less easily juggled with other methods. Having sorted a few customers locos out in my time that have been altered on Sprog and manually my personal preference is probably different to yours.
I have deployed CV54 on several locos and use this typically as the first adjustment, make some alterations while the loco is on the move, then set the motor up on the lokprogrammer. Once the running is smoothed out I tune the chuff or acceleration settings. Works for me!

When I did CV54 on the Heljan Class 31 it crawled round my layout with load 12 in brass, painfully slowly at spots.
Then I made alterations to the settings and have got the speed up nicely. Less of an issue with the Heljan 47 but with some similar traits on the Western.

I have another Heljan 31 to do, I will fit it then record it on load 12, then repeat after I have installed my settings for better top end.
 
Osgood

Osgood

Western Thunderer
I am now getting worried about the prospect of sound in Heljan 31s/20s. Does anyone have an installation which works well light or loaded, and which behaves in a prototypical manner?

p.s. If my similar sounding adventure on friday with a loading shovel was anything to go by Richard, I'd change your 31's diesel filters - water and sub-zero temperatures (and a very old filter) :D
 
TheSnapper

TheSnapper

Western Thunderer
Richard

Could be a drive problem, the same as I had on my '31.
Check that the gears are meshing OK, and that these clamps are tight and not allowing the motor to "ride-up"::


index.php


My Heljan Class 20 also exhibited similar symptoms, but I couldn't find the cause. I came to the conclusion there was a problem somewhere in the drive-train of one bogie. and ended-up removing one of the motors! Runs fine now, but I'm not suggesting you do that!

Cheers

Tim
 
richard carr

richard carr

Western Thunderer
TheSnapper said:
Richard

Could be a drive problem, the same as I had on my '31.
Check that the gears are meshing OK, and that these clamps are tight and not allowing the motor to "ride-up"::

My Heljan Class 20 also exhibited similar symptoms, but I couldn't find the cause. I came to the conclusion there was a problem somewhere in the drive-train of one bogie. and ended-up removing one of the motors! Runs fine now, but I'm not suggesting you do that!

Cheers

Tim
Click to expand...



Tim

I thought it might be that too so I have had the bogies out and made sure that everything is tight so that is not the issue here, something just isn't right and I don't know what iti is.

Richard
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Cliff Williams said:
Steph I agree that you can make many changes with the likes of Sprog and JMRI. But they are numerical and you cannot see the changes as easily.
With lokprogrammer you can easily change the CV settings for speed curves etc, which are less easily juggled with other methods. Having sorted a few customers locos out in my time that have been altered on Sprog and manually my personal preference is probably different to yours.
Click to expand...
Cliff,
JMRI does have a graphical interface for speed curves and other settings, so I suspect that any issues people have had are down to 'finger trouble' rather than the application! It's a great deal more than just a CV table.
I've got both SPROG and LokProgrammer and in many ways the implementation is similar, although JMRI looks less 'flashy' than the LokProgrammer.
It seems to be a nature of DCC that opinions of the same kit can vary wildly...

Richard,
A quick follow-up to my previous questions, do the locos always slow in the same place on the layout?

Steph
 
richard carr

richard carr

Western Thunderer
Steve

No I have checked the gauge they are all fine, the tracks fine as when they are light engine they run through ok without slowing down.

Richard
 
adrian

adrian

Flying Squad
Puzzling - do they slow down if the section is approached from the other direction? I'm not an expert at all on DCC and I suppose it depends on your setup but could the stock somehow be interfering with another block section? Is another loco with the same stock attached ok?
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
richard carr said:
Steph

Yes they both slow down in exactly the same places.

Richard
Click to expand...
Richard,
I'm not yet ready to jump to the conclusion that it's the decoder. If it was I'd expect the loco to be behaving strangely at random times and locations. I suggest that it's, at least in part, a layout problem. I assume you've done the usual checks for any mechanical reasons for the locos to stop (track gauge, magnets, fouling, scenery) and so wonder if there's any way you can hook up a conventional 12v controller to your track circuits? That way you can check for any voltage or current drop. DCC is much less susceptible to these problems than analogue, but they'll still occur.
It may just be that a slightly sub-optimal decoder set up is causing the loco trouble when it hits a section of track that's under-voltage or current-limited. Of course your other locos may still be fine in the same area.
It sounds as though Cliff is well on the way to helping you optimise the set up of your locos. If the problem persists let us know and I'll have a further think. I'd need to know the answers to my first two questions though as they provide significant indicators to what's going on on the decoder.
Steph
 
S

SteveO

Guest
Interesting problem. I don't know much about DCC, but does the chip think you have a bigger load than you actually do and is trying to represent that strain by slowing down?

I would guess in that situation the chip would apply a heavier exhaust note? As I said, I don't know much about DCC!
 
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