Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

45596 Crewe North 25/10/47, Edge Hill (Loan) 28/8/48, Edge Hill 4/12/48, Carlisle Upperby 24/2/56, Stockport 2/7/62, Wdn we 23/7/66.
92219 Bristol St.Philip's Marsh x/1/60, Cardiff Canton 27/2/60, Cardiff East Dock 8/9/62, Wdn 9/8/65.
Surely the one before last would have been 92249.

Regards
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

No - I fear not Martin. 92221-92250 were built at Crewe and were completed long before Swindon had built 92220.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Certainly Arun if you go by build date although I wonder why Swindon were so tardy?

 

[Rob R]

Certainly Arun if you go by build date although I wonder why Swindon were so tardy?

It takes a long time to polish a Copper Chimney Top............

 

[Lyndhurstman]

Certainly Arun if you go by build date although I wonder why Swindon were so tardy?

Tardy? Or canny? Given their long history of PR mining, the last of Swindon steam would have been an opportune moment for self-congratulatory hyperbole

Cheers

Jan

 

[Arun Sharma]

I have an idea that both Swindon and Crewe Works were producing diesels as well at the time - In fact these might even have been Westerns [D1000 etc., ] at the time.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Just predates the Westerns however I expect the skilled men of the west were trying to keep Warships and Hymeks running. If we think scrapping six year old steam locomotives was extreme waste, allowing Swindon to deviate down the hydraulic path was folly of the highest order, especially when we consider the oldest diesel locomotives currently in main line use are English Electric type 3s of much the same age as 9Fs. Nonetheless the aesthetic prize is most definitely shared between the Westerns and the Deltics, oh that we had some of that today. Enough of politics I suspect.
Martin

 

[Roger Pound]

It is clearly a BR41. It can be recognized because it's the only class with the distinctive step in the footplate (above the cylinders) and with a plank in front of the smokebox connecting both sides of the footplate.

Michael

I wouldn't dispute that point, but the visible driving wheels also look rather large for a Br41, hence my thoughts. Just one of things .

Roger

 

[mickoo]

It is clearly a BR41. It can be recognized because it's the only class with the distinctive step in the footplate (above the cylinders) and with a plank in front of the smokebox connecting both sides of the footplate.

Michael

Not strictly all correct but it is certainly a 41

It's certainly not an 03 as they all had apron/bib front footplates, but, that distinctive step in the footplate above the cylinders is also present on the 01 Neubaukessel engines (probably my all time favorite class with 52.80 and 58.30 tied in second) as is the front full width platform. The 03.10 also has that full width platform but not the step in the running boards above the cylinders.

The give away is the tender, it's an oil burner so that limits it to the 41 (numbered 042), 44 (numbered 043) and 01.10 (numbered 012) classes and it is most certainly not an 01.10

There's a name given to the front end apron when it's cut away, actually two I think (one with only the outer sections removed and sloped middle section remaining and the other with all three sections removed) and for the life of me I can't remember what that name is

I really need to put this anorak away, it is rather distracting.

Addendum, the Br23 also has a full width front platform but their profile is distinct and unique and not mistakable for any other German engine.

 

[mickoo]

I wouldn't dispute that point, but the visible driving wheels also look rather large for a Br41, hence my thoughts. Just one of things .

Roger

They are actually quite big wheels, not as big as the Pacifics but actually smaller than the 44's

They were designed for fast freight, livestock rumour has it, hence the name Oschenlok (Oxen loco) but it could also come from the fact that they were very sure footed, they didn't have the starting effort of the Decapods but once up to speed could keep heavy freight rolling.

They were often used in tandem with the 44's which were no slouch when opened due to their bigger driving wheels.

 

[oldravendale]

Penultimate is indeed the correct word, Dave, but I find my phraseology more poetic. Pretentious? Moi? Thanks again for the additional info vis-a-vis the German photos. This will be added to the descriptions. Also Roger - thanks for your musings and Michael for a bit more detail.

Martin - yours explains the Carlisle Upperby plate. I've always regarded the locoshed books as a primary source which is why I'm always on the look out for them but they clearly have the allocation in April 1957 and 1959 wrong. I'll be grateful if you'll confirm your source so I can add it to the details as a reference. As for the 9F - as Arun advises, the last one by build date was 92220, not 92250. Interesting thoughts from others why Swindon was last to build. I suspect the works building them were advised the numbers to use and Swindon simply had too much work on - or maybe Jan is right and Swindon recognised the PR opportunity and delayed their builds to suit. Or maybe Rob is actually correct. Additional info from Arun and Martin helps put the 9F builds in context.

Then back to Germany. Although I know nothing of German locos I understand your thinking, Roger, but thanks Mick, your two posts are pretty well chapter and verse.

All in all I've been rather pleased with the reaction to these German photos and the interest they've engendered. More to come!

A note here to say that there'll be a pause in postings for a week or so while I get all the data now collected in to some sort of readable format. I've decided how to do it so it lies alongside the photos in such a way that the detailed and therefore long strings of info doesn't get lost but it'll take a while. The timing of this pause has no relevance as far as the photo series are concerned, just that I've set my mind to the task so it must be done.

Moving on... A4 60031 Golden Plover with a 64B shed plate at Kings Cross having arrived with The Elizabethan on 26th July 1961. This loco has featured three times previously and this photo actually very effectively answers the question of whether a Haymarket engine got as far as London. Well, here's the living proof! It was at Haymarket from new (BR Database), then to St Rollox in February 1962 and was withdrawn from there at the end of October 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Shieldhall, in December the same year. (BR Database). Haymarket were clearly proud of their A4s judging by the external condition.


Another A4, 60017 Silver Fox on an up relief at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. This is another loco that's featured three times previously. It was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new at the time of the photo, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).



A3 60103 Flying Scotsman again on an up Newcastle train at Harringay West on 22nd July 1961. The history of this loco is, of course, well known and it's been in these pages three times peviously. Suffice to say that it was a Kings Cross engine and had been since April 1957, withdrawn in January 1963. (SLS).



Back to Germany...

Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 again. 2-10-0 051 816-7.



Probably Rheine Station and oil burning Pacific 012 061-8.

Edit. Yorkshire Dave:
This is Emden Hbf - At the time of these photos the electrification terminated at Rheine. The Rheine-Emden section was electrified later.

On the left Alfred Wegner Eisenhandel - Emden was and still is located in Emden.



In the shed or yard at Bahnbetriebswerk (Bw) Rheine in March 1974 and coal fired 2-10-0 044 375-4.



Brian

 

[Arun Sharma]

051-816-7's tender looks rather strange - it almost looks articulated or perhaps has a guard's compartment added!

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Probably Rheine Station and Pacific 012 061-8

This is Emden Hbf - At the time of these photos the electrification terminated at Rheine. The Rheine-Emden section was electrified later.

On the left Alfred Wegner Eisenhandel - Emden was and still is located in Emden.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

051-816-7's tender looks rather strange - it almost looks articulated or perhaps has a guard's compartment added!

It's a 2'2'T26 Kabintender. The cabin was added to some these tenders for the train guard and therefore eliminating the Pwg (brake van) from the mid to late 1960s. However they did not remain is use very long as guards were subsequently removed from all goods trains.

The Pwg (brake van) was marshalled between the loco and the train - not at the end of the train as in the UK.

 

[Roger Pound]

They were designed for fast freight, livestock rumour has it, hence the name Oschenlok (Oxen loco) but it could also come from the fact that they were very sure footed, they didn't have the starting effort of the Decapods but once up to speed could keep heavy freight rolling.

I am delighted by the reaction to my mild musing and wrong alternative identification of the class 42. The quote above reminded me of the fact that the term 'Ox' was also applied by the Nord Railway of France to their four cylinder compound freight locomotives which became class 140A in the SNCF numbering system. Two hundred and eighty were built between 1912 and 1927. Apparently the nickname was given because of their power in starting a train.

Sorry to deviate in to a further European country, but I thought it might be of interest to hear of another 'Ox'.

Roger

 

[mickoo]

Dave is correct, it's a Kabin tender, there are several variants but this is by far the most common 'production' variant, the others are small or single test builds.



This one (below) is a little more refined and one of the first test builds, it was too complicated to fabricate and they all ended up as utilitarian cabs like above.



As far as I know the German ones were not heated, or not very well and surrounded by all that cold water were uncomfortably cold.

The other Kabin tenders were on the OBB but fitted to the bathtub (Wannen) variety common to Br52; some later transposed to Br50's later in their lives as well as Br38. These are much more spacious and I believe heated better.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Matters arising
45596 The info comes from "Book of the Jubilees" by Irwell Press. It would seem that Longworth also missed the Carlisle allocation.

9Fs
92219 went into WR storage 7/65 prior to withdrawal, possibly at Gloucester Horton Road/Barry Docks, it was at those locations post withdrawal.
The batch 92203 - 92220 were in the 1957 Swindon building programme under Lot No 429 authorised in Dec 55.
Nos 92221 -92250 were in the Crewe 1958 programme under Lot E497 authorised in Sept 56.
All 48 locos were allocated, at least initially to the WR. The Crewe ones were delivered between 5/58 - 12/58. The Swindon ones between 4/59 - 3/60. The RCTS notes that the late delivery of the Swindon batch was due to works resources being committed to the building of the Warship diesel hydraulics D800 - D832.
It is an interesting aside that there were 251 9Fs built and 1963 was the only year they were all in traffic, 14 being withdrawn in 1964.
Martin

 

[Arun Sharma]

It's a 2'2'T26 Kabintender. The cabin was added to some these tenders for the train guard and therefore eliminating the Pwg (brake van) from the mid to late 1960s. However they did not remain is use very long as guards were subsequently removed from all goods trains.

The Pwg (brake van) was marshalled between the loco and the train - not at the end of the train as in the UK.

Thank you

 

[simond]

What’s the rationale for having the guard on the tender?

I can see quite a few reasons why the guard would be at the far end of a non-through-braked train, per uk practice, and can see the logic of not needing a guard on through braked trains, but don’t understand what a tender-based (or next-to-tender-marshalled) guard is for?

Brian, please excuse the rabbit hole!

 

[michael080]

The German PWG (PackWagen Güterzug == parcel wagon for freight trains) doesn't have the same function as the UK brake wagon. It is actually a wagon dedicated to transport parcels. The DB had its own express parcel department that was mainly used for larger parcels above 25kg. They were part of every freight train. They had also a compartment for the Zugführer (chief guard). Even if these wagon had hand brakes, they were not dedicated brake wagons. On the continent, unbraked trains had small cabins on freight wagons with a brake man populating each of these cabins. A certain percentage of wagons had to have a brake man. For obvious cost reasons, this accelerated the use of automatic brakes on freight trains.

After the end of the DB parcel business in Germany, the chief guard had no dedicated place, he was unwelcome on the foot plate. So the idea of the Kabinentender was born.

As Mick writes, they were very unpoular, because their heating was inefficient and the cold water in the tender cooled down the cabin even in summer. Furthermore, coal dust was blown into the cabins, they were very dirty.
These cabins were widely considered a job creation scheme when the number of steam engines dwindled and steam engine workers became redundant.

The Wikipedia arcticle describes the PWG in detail. Unfortunately, only the German version of this article describes the German practice.

Michael