Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Yorkshire Dave]

The last three are in Bunhill Row as @mickoo has noted. Need to swing round 180 degrees.

H Bates is on the corner of Bunhill Row and Chequer Street. It has been razed and replaced by the building on the left. Chequer Street is the turning on the left before the flats. The block of flats visible in the background first photo of H Bates still there on the left - recognisable by the ground floor supporting pillars

 

[mickoo]

The last three are in Bunhill Row as @mickoo has noted. Need to swing round 180 degrees.

H Bates is on the corner of Bunhill Row and Chequer Street. It has been razed and replaced by the building on the left. Chequer Street is the turning on the left before the flats. The block of flats visible in the background first photo of H Bates still there on the left - recognisable by the ground floor supporting pillars

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Drat, usurped again by Dr Watson......

To be fair I would never have got it, I couldn't find address 101 in Chequer street (it simply isn't long enough either), never figured it'd be on the corner with Bunhill.

 

[LarryG]

I love the photo of the H Class 0-4-4T. The whole design really does look ancient and, together with its spindly wheels, sets it apart from more modern designs. To see one today in mucky black livery would be quite something.

 

[oldravendale]

Looks as though you're on a roll again, chaps. Thank you Dave and Mickoo. More today including some of the Bates emporium. Thanks too, Dave, for yours about the E4. Now duly edited.

Schools Class 30933 King's Canterbury still complete but shorn of nameplates, recorded as being in Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961 but I personally saw this same loco in Ashford Works yard on 5th April 1961. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in 1950 and according to the SLS it remained there, with a couple of periods of storage until being withdrawn in November 1961. However BR Database shows it allocated to Ashford in June 1959 and Nine Elms in October 1961. I suspect that BR Database is nearer the truth as the Locoshed Books for the period show the loco at Bricklayers Arms on November 26th 1959 although that final transfer to Nine Elms looks a bit unlikely. The loco certainly appears to be carrying a 73F Ashford shed plate here. The SLS report it as still being in the works yard on 28th July 1961 and I suspect it never turned a revenue earning wheel after my April sighting of it. It was observed on the scrap road in the works yard by the Railway Observer and SLS from 20th February 1961 although no final scrapping date is advised by WHTS. BR Database record this as being during December 1961.





E4 32578 and an unidentified Class H 0-4-4T at Ashford Shed (but probably the scrap road at Ashford Works) on 3rd June 1961. 32578 was allocated to Brighton in August 1960 where it was withdrawn in April 1961. The Railway Observer reports it on the scrap road on 25th May 1961 and BR Database gives a scrapping date of June 1961.



An unidentified Battle of Britain on up express passing Ashford Shed area on 3rd June 1961.

Edit. Possibly 34068 Kenley. This was allocated to Stewarts Lane from December 1949 and moved to Salisbury in May 1961 although, as discussed earlier, this may be a book transfer in advance of the Kent Coast electrification. It was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). The Railway Observer reported that it arrived at Eastleigh Works in February 1964 and was cut up there week ending 21st March 1964.



Another two of the Bates building in Chequer Street





This, for Tim, is a rather arty farty shot and the only clue is Shoreditch in the 1980s. If I get these negs out on the bench and sort them in to order it may help to give some context.



Brian

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Brian,

I think you have been at the Horlicks too much lately, check the caption of the second photo above, the second loco is a Wainwright 'H' class!

cheers

Mike

 

[oldravendale]

Hi Brian,

I think you have been at the Horlicks too much lately, check the caption of the second photo above, the second loco is a Wainwright 'H' class!

cheers

Mike

Thanks Mike. I was correcting that as you sent your message. All updated now.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Coming back to Chequer Street these are the views today.

H Bates has been razed and replaced with this.



In the second photo with the tower blocks the view has hardly changed apart from the H Bates building. In this area there the Islington Peabody Estate.



And in the 'arty farty' shot you cannot replicate it as trees have since grown in front of Braithwaite House. This is on the other corner of Chequer Street and Bunhill Row.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Battle of Britain on up express passing Ashford Shed area on 3rd June 1961.

Note the overhead catenary for operating the electric locos in the yards. Classes 70 (electric ex- CC1, CC2 & CC3) and 71 had pantographs for such use.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Drat, usurped again by Dr Watson......

Never mind, Holmes...

 

[Arun Sharma]

I'm back! So is BR Database so there can be no more excuses.

There's quite a lot to catch up on so firstly thanks.

Mick and Dave for all your input about the Shoreditch, Cafe and GPO photos and the extras from Simond about the awful SD1 and Gary re the GPO.

Then Barry and Martin - suddenly the Cuckoo Line and Brighton pops up again.

Mike for 34014.

Tony for the info about 31067.

Super to see some info here from Ben and the enlargement of the subject again by Mick and Dave.

All this extra stuff has been carefully collected and collated and appears now in the "collected information".

H Class 31500 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. By November 1959 it was allocated to Tonbridge where it was withdrawn in June 1961. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it was cut up at Ashford week ending 1st July 1961.

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E4 Class 0-6-2T 32512 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It went in to store at Redhill in September 1955 but was reinstated at Brighton in October the same year where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1961, so it was already withdrawn when photographed here. The Railway Observer records it as on the scrap road at Ashford on 25 May 1961 and then cut up week ending 22nd July1961.

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Here's E1 4-4-0 31067 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961 which was in very recent post #3255. In May 1960 it moved to Stewarts Lane and was withdrawn in November 1961. (SLS). Thereafter it's a bit foggy as WHTS advises simply Ashford Works undated and verification required. However, BR Database confirms it was scrapped in December 1961.

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Q1 33029 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It had been allocated to Tonbridge since December 1947, moved to Feltham in May 1962 and then Tunbride Wells West towards the end of September the same year where it was withdrawn in January 1964. (SLS). The LCGB reports it was despatched from Three Bridges for Eastleigh on 6th June 1964 and then was observed at Gloucester en route to Bird's at Morriston on 12th July 1964. (WHTS). BR Database reports a scrapping date of October 1964.

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Here's our fix of Shoreditch in the 1980s. First the junction of Leonard Street and The Angel at 73 City Road. Nice F Registration Triumph 1300 - I had an E reg one of those!

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All we have here is that it's Shoreditch Area again. M Reg Ford Cortina Mark III - I had two of those in succession - wonderful cars both.

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Two at the same location again in Shoreditch and this time the works of H Bates but I don't have detail.

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Brian

Impressive levitating lady wearing bell bottoms [or perhaps 'flares'] crossing the road by The Angel. Behind the Vauxhall Viva there is an Austin van - GPO variety and rather larger than the average Austin LD. I think it might be one of the GPO's high value load vans. The GPO/Royal Mail have/had a museum at Debden which has all sorts of interesting road vehicles, postboxes and Mail Rail locos/trailers on display. I went there to measure up an Austin LD when I was designing the 7mm kit of the Austin LD.

 

[mickoo]

Impressive levitating lady wearing bell bottoms [or perhaps 'flares'] crossing the road by The Angel.

She's got some spring in her step

 

[Barry37]

Looks as though you're on a roll again, chaps. Thank you Dave and Mickoo. More today including some of the Bates emporium. Thanks too, Dave, for yours about the E4. Now duly edited.

Schools Class 30933 King's Canterbury still complete but shorn of nameplates, recorded as being in Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961 but I personally saw this same loco in Ashford Works yard on 5th April 1961. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in 1950 and according to the SLS it remained there, with a couple of periods of storage until being withdrawn in November 1961. However BR Database shows it allocated to Ashford in June 1959 and Nine Elms in October 1961. I suspect that BR Database is nearer the truth as the Locoshed Books for the period show the loco at Bricklayers Arms on November 26th 1959 although that final transfer to Nine Elms looks a bit unlikely. The loco certainly appears to be carrying a 73F Ashford shed plate here. The SLS report it as still being in the works yard on 28th July 1961 and I suspect it never turned a revenue earning wheel after my April sighting of it. It was observed on the scrap road in the works yard by the Railway Observer and SLS from 20th February 1961 although no final scrapping date is advised by WHTS. BR Database record this as being during December 1961.



View attachment 211848

E4 32578 and an unidentified Class H 0-4-4T at Ashford Shed (but probably the scrap road at Ashford Works) on 3rd June 1961. 32578 was allocated to Brighton in August 1960 where it was withdrawn in April 1961. The Railway Observer reports it on the scrap road on 25th May 1961 and BR Database gives a scrapping date of June 1961.

View attachment 211849

An unidentified Battle of Britain on up express passing Ashford Shed area on 3rd June 1961.

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Another two of the Bates building in Chequer Street

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This, fir Tim, is a rather arty farty shot and the only clue is Shoreditch in the 1980s. If I get these negs out on the bench and sort them in to order it may help to give some context.

View attachment 211862

Brian

If I remember rightly, Old Street (running E-W north of Chequer Street) was an area known for engineering businesses and suppliers. My father had a woodworking machinery catalogue from one of them - a hardback book, about the size of an AA Handbook. Haven't yet recalled what their name was.
All seem to have gone now!

 

[Martin Shaw]

30933 King's Canterbury Fratton 3/35, Bournemouth 7/37, Basingstoke 24/2/43, Bricklayers Arms 8/2/46, Ashford 14/6/59, Nine Elms 10/10/61, Wdn 12/61, Stored Ashford works 12/61, Cut up Ashford works w/e 9/12/61 so it can't have been stored more than a day or two going by these dates. I seem to remember the date 10/10/61 as appearing in other transfers to Nine Elms, no doubt a paper accountancy exercise as we have previously discussed.

I've had a look at unrebuilt BoB sculling around the SE division in 61, possibly nine.
34050 Royal Observer Corp
34061 73 Squadron
34067 Tangmere
34068 Kenley
34070 Manston
34073 249 Squadron
34083 605 Squadron
34086 219 Squadron
34087 145 Squadron.
I may have added or missed the odd one but given the nameplate in the photo appears very short my guess, and no more than that is 68 Kenley.

Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Dave - Thanks for the further updates re the geography of Shoreditch and its environs. Also for the mention of the overhead in the photo of the BB.

I'd not noticed the levitating lady, Arun. But the vehicles are probably of more interest to me as well now. Must be a sign of age...

Thanks for yours, Barry. H Bates was clearly a metal bashing company so your message makes perfect sense.

Martin - Thanks for yours. The Schools must have been a book transfer, although for what reason I'm unsure. It was certainly stored for a long while at Ashford before it was scrapped. I guess the notional transfer may have been to reduce to a minimum the number of steam locos recorded on the Kent Coast lines, but as the loco was on the scrap road already I'd have thought a straightforward withdrawal would have made more sense.

Also for yours about the BB. I've gone back to the original tif scan and the final digit on the smokebox number plate certainly looks like an 8 so there's every good reason to believe you are correct.

This is E1 4-4-0 31019 in Ashford Works Yard on 3rd June 1961. I have a particular reason for remembering this loco as it was paired with T9 30117 for the Ian Allan Railtour to Ashford and Eastleigh on 5th April 1961 and on which I was a passenger. The Railtour Files
It was clearly in great condition as the two locos managed near enough 80mph on the way to Ashford. I was told it was withdrawn when it came off our train and the records seem to suggest that was so. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane in May 1960 and was officially withdrawn on 29th April 1961. (SLS). Despite appearances Tim was lucky to get this photo as the loco was cut up at Ashford week ending 10th June 1961. (RO).



On shed at Ashford on 3rd June 1961 was Schools 30937 Epsom. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in May 1961 and then Nine Elms in November the same year where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was noted at Eastleigh awaiting works in January 1963 (SLS), although the Railway Observer has it arriving at Eastleigh in February or March 1963 but that may have been when it was noted in the scrap yard where it was also seen in May. (SLS). It was cut up week ending 15th June 1963. (RO).



...and yet another Schools at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. This is 30935 Sevenoaks at the time a Bricklayers Arms loco where it had been in and out of storage since at least January 1953. It was allocated to Nine Elms in November 1961 where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was photographed being cut up at Cohen's, Kettering, on 5th July 1964. (WHTS).



Again, Shoreditch in the 1980s and these are all of the same buildings, identified as "something" Court. Other details are unknown







Brian

 

[Barry37]

Dave - Thanks for the further updates re the geography of Shoreditch and its environs. Also for the mention of the overhead in the photo of the BB.

I'd not noticed the levitating lady, Arun. But the vehicles are probably of more interest to me as well now. Must be a sign of age...

Thanks for yours, Barry. H Bates was clearly a metal bashing company so your message makes perfect sense.

Martin - Thanks for yours. The Schools must have been a book transfer, although for what reason I'm unsure. It was certainly stored for a long while at Ashford before it was scrapped. I guess the notional transfer may have been to reduce to a minimum the number of steam locos recorded on the Kent Coast lines, but as the loco was on the scrap road already I'd have thought a straightforward withdrawal would have made more sense.

Also for yours about the BB. I've gone back to the original tif scan and the final digit on the smokebox number plate certainly looks like an 8 so there's every good reason to believe you are correct.

This is E1 4-4-0 31019 in Ashford Works Yard on 3rd June 1961. I have a particular reason for remembering this loco as it was paired with T9 30117 for the Ian Allan Railtour to Ashford and Eastleigh on 5th April 1961 and on which I was a passenger. The Railtour Files
It was clearly in great condition as the two locos managed near enough 80mph on the way to Ashford. I was told it was withdrawn when it came off our train and the records seem to suggest that was so. It was allocated to Stewarts Lane in May 1960 and was officially withdrawn on 29th April 1961. (SLS). Despite appearances Tim was lucky to get this photo as the loco was cut up at Ashford week ending 10th June 1961. (RO).

View attachment 211934

On shed at Ashford on 3rd June 1961 was Schools 30937 Epsom. It was allocated to Bricklayers Arms in May 1961 and then Nine Elms in November the same year where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was noted at Eastleigh awaiting works in January 1963 (SLS), although the Railway Observer has it arriving at Eastleigh in February or March 1963 but that may have been when it was noted in the scrap yard where it was also seen in May. (SLS). It was cut up week ending 15th June 1963. (RO).

View attachment 211935

...and yet another Schools at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. This is 30935 Sevenoaks at the time a Bricklayers Arms loco where it had been in and out of storage since at least January 1953. It was allocated to Nine Elms in November 1961 where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was photographed being cut up at Cohen's, Kettering, on 5th July 1964. (WHTS).

View attachment 211936

Again, Shoreditch in the 1980s and these are all of the same buildings, identified as "something" Court. Other details are unknown

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Brian

I've remembered the name of the machinery supplier in Old Street - it was Parry's. The well-known tool firm, Tyzack's, also had premises there.
Not far away, in St. John's Road, was another tool supplier for which my father had a catalogue - Farmer, Stedall.
The "British History Online" site has scanned versions of a local London history: "The Survey of London". This one relates to the St. John's/Clerkenwell Road area, with details of various businesses (and quite a few old and new photos).
St. John's Square was the home of J. Smith & Sons for many years, until 1988. They were originally clockmakers* before concentrating on non-ferrous metals.
* this explains why there's a clock tower at the Angel end of Pentonville Road with their name on.
Other volumes cover the City etc., plus the docks and their various structures..
This is the volume that (selectively) covers Shoreditch.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Again, Shoreditch in the 1980s and these are all of the same buildings, identified as "something" Court. Other details are unknown

Quaker Court. It's next to Braithwaite House (the block of flats) seen in the previous sequence.

The view today



It is a 1960s LCC development built on a WWII bomb site. The bottom photo is Banner Street and a model was produced in 1962. Model, Banner Street, 1962

The history goes on to say the Quaker burial ground was in the centre and escaped the bombing. Today the former burial ground is known as Quaker Gardens Quaker Gardens, Islington - Wikipedia.

 

[oldravendale]

Another nice bit of sleuthing, Dave, so thank you.

Thanks also to Barry for adding to the social history information of the area.

I'm sorry to say that this geographical diversion is now over. There will be others somewhat later but that's it for now. All the info has been collected in pdf format and I'm very happy to put these up on WT if there's interest but it'll just be repeats of what's been published individually already so adds nothing to the backgrounds. It does, however, enable me to keep all the data together.

We'll move on to a new diversion at the end of this post. First we'll visit the works at Ashford. Anyone want some backhead detail for an N or a Q1?

An unidentified Q1 and H 31533 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. The H had only recently been allocated to Tunbridge Wells West in May 1961 and I suspect that this was a book allocation while the loco was in works. It had previously been at Tonbridge since April 1960. Pull-push gear was fitted to the loco in the same month which suggests it was specifically for use on the pull-push trains out of Tonbridge. It was withdrawn from Tunbridge Wells West in September 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it then went to Eastleigh Works where it was scrapped week ending 29th September 1962.



N Class 31858 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. It had been a Guildford engine since October 1959 and was withdrawn from there at the end of December 1965. (SLS). It was observed in store at Eastleigh in mid January 1966 and then at Buttigieg's, Newport (RO) where it was observed intact in June 1966. (LCGB). There are other observations on WHTS of it being seen intact at the scrap yard through to September 1966 although he precise date of scrapping is not reported. The date proposed on BR Database of May 1966 is probably a bit premature.



Q1 33022 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. This was another Guildford engine having been allocated there since October 1953 and where it was withdrawn in January 1964. It was in store at Fratton where it was observed in January 1964 (RO) and was observed at Swansea East Dock en route to Bird's at Morriston on 16th August 1964. (LCGB). BR Database proposes a scrapping date of October 1964.


Bonus pictures for today are more steam engines but of a rather different genre. Three images with no information regarding type, location or date (the circa date is an estimation only) so any traction/road/ploughing/roller enthusiasts please advise. I've thrown in the result of any research I've done for good measure.

First is an Aveling & Porter Tractor of 1913, No 7898 by name "Margaret". See Aveling & Porter Tractor, 7898 "Margaret", D 7078, Image 55 - Steam Scenes from where I stole these details.


The traditional row of engines with no details given.



Steam Scenes Aveling & Porter Road Roller, 4403, AD 8764 - Steam Scenes tells us this is another Aveling & Porter machine, No 4403 of 1899 registration AD8764.



No more steam road vehicles to follow these just now, but some vintage and veteran cars next. I'll need help with most of those too!

Brian

 

[Osgood]

2709 (33022) burst a bubble, Brian - I'd always assumed the boiler barrel followed the general shape of the casing.

Oh well.

 

[mickoo]

The last photo of Banner street is of interest, at the far end you did a right and then left into Garrett Street. Where Tim is stood if you turn right then there would be the Royal Mail building we had lunch in, I used to either walk down Banner Street between the two or Old Street which is to the right.

 

[oldravendale]

2709 (33022) burst a bubble, Brian - I'd always assumed the boiler barrel followed the general shape of the casing.

Oh well.

Most certainly not... It's Bulleid... Air smoothed.... Like a brick...