Jordan or Plymouth Mad
Mid-Western Thunderer
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- Thread starter Jordan or Plymouth Mad
- Start date
28ten
Guv'nor
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
As you know I had a similar problem
the only thing that really stopped me was putting my 4mm Hymek next to the 7mm version, and there have been several times over the last few weeks when layout planning that I have wondered if its the right thing. If cost is the only driver then its a no brainer. Telford came at the right time for me as a motivator if I had gone to expoEM it could all have gone the other way, I really was that close.
As you know I had a similar problem
the only thing that really stopped me was putting my 4mm Hymek next to the 7mm version, and there have been several times over the last few weeks when layout planning that I have wondered if its the right thing. If cost is the only driver then its a no brainer. Telford came at the right time for me as a motivator if I had gone to expoEM it could all have gone the other way, I really was that close.
marsa69
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Why not do both?
use your son as the reason to indulge the dark side in HO. Not only do you encourage another convert into the model railway world but you get to 'play trains' as well.
Your O scale modelling will be exactly that......modelling. The chance to build more detailed models than otherwise available in the smaller scales. Models that have that 'something' to them that just can't be captured in N, HO or OO.
As much as I'd like an expansive garden layout to run full length trains it just isn't going to become a reality for me short of a Lottery win. Thats why I've toyed with the idea of a smallish roundy roundy in OO or N. A simple tail-chaser to satisfy the running trains aspect of our hobby,
regards,
Mark
Why not do both?
use your son as the reason to indulge the dark side in HO. Not only do you encourage another convert into the model railway world but you get to 'play trains' as well.
Your O scale modelling will be exactly that......modelling. The chance to build more detailed models than otherwise available in the smaller scales. Models that have that 'something' to them that just can't be captured in N, HO or OO.
As much as I'd like an expansive garden layout to run full length trains it just isn't going to become a reality for me short of a Lottery win. Thats why I've toyed with the idea of a smallish roundy roundy in OO or N. A simple tail-chaser to satisfy the running trains aspect of our hobby,
regards,
Mark
lancer1027
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Hi Jordan, Well you already know my thoughts about the dark side :lol: :lol: but seriously although very tempting to "go back to 00" either due to cost/space or any other factor, i find that going to an O gauge show just hi-lights the reason. This is down to ( in my opinion ) two things.
1st.. The level of detail that can be achieved. Nothing looks better than a loco/coach or wagon that is detailed enough for you to think WOW :shock: that could be real. The detail however is again down to modellers choice but we are all trying to improve
sometimes it works, sometimes it does'nt :vista: 
but we keep on trying
2nd.. There always seems to be a presence with O gauge, whatever the item of rolling stock were looking at or PLAYING with. With OO it always seems ( to me ) that theres no hiding the fact that they are still small , the detail even if you super detail them you cant always see most of it
So basically Jordan thats my view for what its worth. Might not be much help mate but at some point you will make a decision whether its right or wrong :scratch:
Rob :wave:
Hi Jordan, Well you already know my thoughts about the dark side :lol: :lol: but seriously although very tempting to "go back to 00" either due to cost/space or any other factor, i find that going to an O gauge show just hi-lights the reason. This is down to ( in my opinion ) two things.
1st.. The level of detail that can be achieved. Nothing looks better than a loco/coach or wagon that is detailed enough for you to think WOW :shock: that could be real. The detail however is again down to modellers choice but we are all trying to improve
sometimes it works, sometimes it does'nt :vista: but we keep on trying 2nd.. There always seems to be a presence with O gauge, whatever the item of rolling stock were looking at or PLAYING with. With OO it always seems ( to me ) that theres no hiding the fact that they are still small , the detail even if you super detail them you cant always see most of it
So basically Jordan thats my view for what its worth. Might not be much help mate but at some point you will make a decision whether its right or wrong :scratch:
Rob :wave:
Ressaldar
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Hi Jordan,
stick with it mate, you know that it makes sense. Let the lad have his HO you can always have a play when he's gone upthe wooden hill if you need that sort of fix and you have the modeling to go back to the next day.
I was facing a similar situation before Telford, having taken up the old layout and it was very tempting. The thing that put me off in the end, was the fact that I would not have a workbench and would not be making anything - just running trains. As others have said, Telford came at exactly the right time, gave me the wherewithall from the Bring & Buy to purchase the track and DCC system for the new layout and something left to buy a kit with as well. Now I'm well on with building the layout - support structure in place and start the boards tomorrow - and I still have a workbench.
Enjoy the trains and the modelling.
regards
Mike
Hi Jordan,
stick with it mate, you know that it makes sense. Let the lad have his HO you can always have a play when he's gone upthe wooden hill if you need that sort of fix and you have the modeling to go back to the next day.
I was facing a similar situation before Telford, having taken up the old layout and it was very tempting. The thing that put me off in the end, was the fact that I would not have a workbench and would not be making anything - just running trains. As others have said, Telford came at exactly the right time, gave me the wherewithall from the Bring & Buy to purchase the track and DCC system for the new layout and something left to buy a kit with as well. Now I'm well on with building the layout - support structure in place and start the boards tomorrow - and I still have a workbench.
Enjoy the trains and the modelling.
regards
Mike
Dikitriki
Flying Squad
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Hi Jordan
Whatever you may think, and however you may portray yourself, you are a capable modeller. I would question whether you would ever build anything in 4mm scale that would give you the satisfaction of your 22, or your 14 when you eventually overcome the gremlins.
Play in 4mm scale with your lad, but build in 7mm.
Cheers
Richard
Hi Jordan
Whatever you may think, and however you may portray yourself, you are a capable modeller. I would question whether you would ever build anything in 4mm scale that would give you the satisfaction of your 22, or your 14 when you eventually overcome the gremlins.
Play in 4mm scale with your lad, but build in 7mm.
Cheers
Richard
iploffy
OC Blue Brigade
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Jordan After seeing what you did with the class 22 and watching you overcome the hurdles with the 14 I dont think you would stay in HO/OO very long as you seem to like a challenge. Theres no challenge in walking to the shops and buying a new model what ever the cost. I personally think you at the moment are a little disheartened due to the lack of running models and the present problems you are having with the class 14
take this thought with you your class 22 is the dogs b*******ks and with the amount of work you are putting into the class 14 that will be the same.
Ian
Jordan After seeing what you did with the class 22 and watching you overcome the hurdles with the 14 I dont think you would stay in HO/OO very long as you seem to like a challenge. Theres no challenge in walking to the shops and buying a new model what ever the cost. I personally think you at the moment are a little disheartened due to the lack of running models and the present problems you are having with the class 14
take this thought with you your class 22 is the dogs b*******ks and with the amount of work you are putting into the class 14 that will be the same.
Ian
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Jordan,
Giving what you achieved with your 22, have you considered the slightly easier but far more rewarding path of One32 modelling?
Jordan,
Giving what you achieved with your 22, have you considered the slightly easier but far more rewarding path of One32 modelling?
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
:scratch: I'm thinking of moving into 2mm scale garden railways ................then I can get the entire BR network in my back garden :laugh: ........any thoughts anyone ?
Phill
PS Sorry I missed this thread I have been working all weekend
...........all scales cost the same in the end as we all spend what we can afford 
:scratch: I'm thinking of moving into 2mm scale garden railways ................then I can get the entire BR network in my back garden :laugh: ........any thoughts anyone ?
Phill
PS Sorry I missed this thread I have been working all weekend
...........all scales cost the same in the end as we all spend what we can afford
lancer1027
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
:lol:
Hey Phill, just think 2mm in the garden......... LAIRA with all those HYDRAULICSPhill Dyson said::scratch: I'm thinking of moving into 2mm scale garden railways ................then I can get the entire BR network in my back garden :laugh: ........any thoughts anyone ?
Phill
PS Sorry I missed this thread I have been working all weekend
:lol:
28ten
Guv'nor
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Even if I had a disposable income of ?1000 a week I wouldnt get any more modelling done, it would just enable me to buy more kits to sit on the shelf.
Wise words there PhillPhill Dyson said:...........all scales cost the same in the end as we all spend what we can afford
Even if I had a disposable income of ?1000 a week I wouldnt get any more modelling done, it would just enable me to buy more kits to sit on the shelf.
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Even if I had a disposable income of ?1000 a week I wouldnt get any more modelling done, it would just enable me to buy more kits to sit on the shelf.[/quote:21in4n61]
With a disposable income of ?1,000 a week, you could afford to pay someone to build them for you... :laugh:
Back to Jordan's question.
I don't think you should let your decision be swayed by cost, but by enjoyment: you got a lot of personal satisfaction out of turning a poor kit into a nice looking model, and you also deservedly won plaudits from your peers for achieving what most believed to be impossible. I also think you enjoy the greater level of detail you are putting into your 0 gauge locos. By all means use the H0 stuff with the youngster, but from my own personal experience with my son, he enjoys bigger trains more than the smaller ones at the moment. There is a lot more play value in being able to put things like the "coins" from Connect 4 into a Big-Big tipper truck, send them round the circuit a few times, and then tip them out for loading into a lorry, which takes them to another loading point to put back into the wagons...
However, I do think that for each of us there is the scale which is simply "right" for us, and ultimately that is where we end up spending most of our hobby time - the ideal is to find it before it is too late and a big commitment has been made in the "wrong" scale. Nothing wrong with a few sidelines and digressions, mind. Quite a few friends do a bit of military modelling when the railway modelling is not going well. Me, I just change scales. Or re-organise the "workshop".
Ultimately, only you know what is right for you and whilst no one here will mind being used as a sounding board (particularly if banter is involved), only you can make the final decision.
As for cost, you can cut your layout coat to suit your materials cost. Worcester Road, for example, is not very big and Steve has been working on it and the locos for some time. The locos appear expensive, and yes are a substantial lump of moolah, but if you saved ?20 a week the equivalent, I believe, of about 60 cigarettes) then it adds up to ?1,000 over a year, and a Fred Phipps loco, plus Mark Wood wheels, and motor and gears, etc, won't cost you that much, and will give you about 100 hours of pleasure in the building and painting, etc, and then the playing with: if you think 0 gauge locos move nicely, you should try G1...
But, if it had been done in 00, would it have had the same visual impact? No, but it might well have had a lot more locos - in fact, would have needed a lot more locos to fill the same space (in relative terms, the same space is nearly 6 times bigger in 4mm scale!) - so overall would have cost the same.
Think personal mid- to long- term satisfaction of creating something special yourself versus the short-term but often transient joy of ownership through purchase, and you will be able to make the right choice for you!
(The problem with buying things is that the novelty wears off, and you end up buying more and more!)
[Edited to improve the grammar. I am sooo picky sometimes, even with myself.]
And yes, we can't play Connect 4 any more in our house, not until we find some of the missing coins...
Wise words there Phill28ten said:[quote=""Phill Dyson"":21in4n61] ...........all scales cost the same in the end as we all spend what we can afford
Even if I had a disposable income of ?1000 a week I wouldnt get any more modelling done, it would just enable me to buy more kits to sit on the shelf.[/quote:21in4n61]
With a disposable income of ?1,000 a week, you could afford to pay someone to build them for you... :laugh:
Back to Jordan's question.
I don't think you should let your decision be swayed by cost, but by enjoyment: you got a lot of personal satisfaction out of turning a poor kit into a nice looking model, and you also deservedly won plaudits from your peers for achieving what most believed to be impossible. I also think you enjoy the greater level of detail you are putting into your 0 gauge locos. By all means use the H0 stuff with the youngster, but from my own personal experience with my son, he enjoys bigger trains more than the smaller ones at the moment. There is a lot more play value in being able to put things like the "coins" from Connect 4 into a Big-Big tipper truck, send them round the circuit a few times, and then tip them out for loading into a lorry, which takes them to another loading point to put back into the wagons...
However, I do think that for each of us there is the scale which is simply "right" for us, and ultimately that is where we end up spending most of our hobby time - the ideal is to find it before it is too late and a big commitment has been made in the "wrong" scale. Nothing wrong with a few sidelines and digressions, mind. Quite a few friends do a bit of military modelling when the railway modelling is not going well. Me, I just change scales. Or re-organise the "workshop".
Ultimately, only you know what is right for you and whilst no one here will mind being used as a sounding board (particularly if banter is involved), only you can make the final decision.
As for cost, you can cut your layout coat to suit your materials cost. Worcester Road, for example, is not very big and Steve has been working on it and the locos for some time. The locos appear expensive, and yes are a substantial lump of moolah, but if you saved ?20 a week the equivalent, I believe, of about 60 cigarettes) then it adds up to ?1,000 over a year, and a Fred Phipps loco, plus Mark Wood wheels, and motor and gears, etc, won't cost you that much, and will give you about 100 hours of pleasure in the building and painting, etc, and then the playing with: if you think 0 gauge locos move nicely, you should try G1...
But, if it had been done in 00, would it have had the same visual impact? No, but it might well have had a lot more locos - in fact, would have needed a lot more locos to fill the same space (in relative terms, the same space is nearly 6 times bigger in 4mm scale!) - so overall would have cost the same.
Think personal mid- to long- term satisfaction of creating something special yourself versus the short-term but often transient joy of ownership through purchase, and you will be able to make the right choice for you!
(The problem with buying things is that the novelty wears off, and you end up buying more and more!)
[Edited to improve the grammar. I am sooo picky sometimes, even with myself.]
And yes, we can't play Connect 4 any more in our house, not until we find some of the missing coins...
bogusman
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Hi Jordan
I must admit I have the same issue but in reverse. I do enjoy modeling P4 and I get all the detail on my models but certain 7mm locos I am finding it very hard to resist. So far I have purchased a tender for a bullied pacific and hope to attain the loco soon the, other loco I want is a warship. But if you are tempted by the 4mm dark side just ask :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
Pete
Hi Jordan
I must admit I have the same issue but in reverse. I do enjoy modeling P4 and I get all the detail on my models but certain 7mm locos I am finding it very hard to resist. So far I have purchased a tender for a bullied pacific and hope to attain the loco soon the, other loco I want is a warship. But if you are tempted by the 4mm dark side just ask :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: .
Pete
westernfan
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Hi Jordan. i know what you mean re 4mm v7mm prices i have recently packed away my o gauge dan y graig layout until i can afford a suitable dedicated outhouse for my o gauge passion due to me being evicted from the master bedroom . so i have built a 4mm layout in the spare bedroom to enable me to still enjoy the hobby but what a contrast in cost i managed to purchase a rake of 14 mineral wagons for less than the cost of 2 o gauge wagon kits a hornby class 121 ?35.00 v a bachmann brass 121 ?350.00 and so on it took over a month for me to get used to the size of 4mm again but i do miss my 7mm models . but then i still have them packed away safe and sound until the day comes when the new train room is built :wave: westernfan
Hi Jordan. i know what you mean re 4mm v7mm prices i have recently packed away my o gauge dan y graig layout until i can afford a suitable dedicated outhouse for my o gauge passion due to me being evicted from the master bedroom . so i have built a 4mm layout in the spare bedroom to enable me to still enjoy the hobby but what a contrast in cost i managed to purchase a rake of 14 mineral wagons for less than the cost of 2 o gauge wagon kits a hornby class 121 ?35.00 v a bachmann brass 121 ?350.00 and so on it took over a month for me to get used to the size of 4mm again but i do miss my 7mm models . but then i still have them packed away safe and sound until the day comes when the new train room is built :wave: westernfan
Jordan or Plymouth Mad
Mid-Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Just to clarify... I don't expect there to be no price difference (although in N & OO prices often level-peg - sometimes N is more expensive!!) I just wish the gulf wasn't quite so vast...Jordan said:
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
OK, 200-300 hours as well, maybe, but he enjoys building them, and he did cough up for a lathe many years ago, but his first two S scale locos were built without one - the tram cost him very little as originally it was built around a Tri-ang motor bogie, fitted with single start worms to prevent it emulating a rocket.
Time versus money - if you don't have the time yourself, you need to find the money to pay for someone else's time. If what you want is in sufficient demand, then the unit costs will be low as someone else's time (reasearch and tool making) has been spread more evenly. And that's why US outline H0 is os much cheaper than UK outline 00 for comparable quality: they sell more.
To put a different perspective on all of this, Trevor Nunn told me that most of his locos had only cost him about ?20-?30 each.Jordan said:
OK, 200-300 hours as well, maybe, but he enjoys building them, and he did cough up for a lathe many years ago, but his first two S scale locos were built without one - the tram cost him very little as originally it was built around a Tri-ang motor bogie, fitted with single start worms to prevent it emulating a rocket.
Time versus money - if you don't have the time yourself, you need to find the money to pay for someone else's time. If what you want is in sufficient demand, then the unit costs will be low as someone else's time (reasearch and tool making) has been spread more evenly. And that's why US outline H0 is os much cheaper than UK outline 00 for comparable quality: they sell more.
Phill Dyson
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
Phill :wave:
I actually think O gauge is more of a bargain in that scenario, as I would rather have a JLTRT Western running light engine (well OK a bit more than ?300) than a Heljan 4mm Western & 12 MK1's :laugh:28ten said:
Phill :wave:
S
Simon Dunkley
Guest
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
It is more a question of priorities: generally, people who say they haven't got the money for a lathe tend to have a cupboard full of unmade kits, the value of which is far in excess of the cost of a small lathe.
[Shameless plug} I have a Unimat Sl still for sale in talk...[/shameless plug]
You don't need a milling machine at all, unless you want to start making your own gearboxes and even then a vertical slide which enables light milling jobs to be undertaken on the lathe is sufficient for this. For the purposes of 0 gauge rather than scale 7, then a lathe need cost not much more than a couple of hundred pounds second hand - probably the cost of a loco kit, once wheels and motors, etc, have been bought. For the price of one JLTRT diesel kit, you can get a second hand Myford ML10 which is man enough for form tools and reprofiling wheels, plus a range of accessories.Jordan said:
It is more a question of priorities: generally, people who say they haven't got the money for a lathe tend to have a cupboard full of unmade kits, the value of which is far in excess of the cost of a small lathe.
[Shameless plug} I have a Unimat Sl still for sale in talk...[/shameless plug]
Pugsley
Western Thunderer
Help me resist Temptation...!!!
I would carry on building stuff in 7mm scale because of the enjoyment of building stuff and the level of detail that you can incorporate, but why not dabble in HO on the side? You could look at that more as a 'trains in the landscape' project, rather than an exercise in detail.
I've certainly abandoned the intense detailing that I was doing in 4mm scale (EM), I've now got 7mm scale for that kind of thing
I figure I can keep the two running alongside each other, it just means it's going to take even longer to get things finished! :laugh:
I would carry on building stuff in 7mm scale because of the enjoyment of building stuff and the level of detail that you can incorporate, but why not dabble in HO on the side? You could look at that more as a 'trains in the landscape' project, rather than an exercise in detail.
I've certainly abandoned the intense detailing that I was doing in 4mm scale (EM), I've now got 7mm scale for that kind of thing
I figure I can keep the two running alongside each other, it just means it's going to take even longer to get things finished! :laugh: