Prototype Barry 1967 and 1968

[Kev T]

Hi Brian
thanks for these photos,I never had the opportunity to go to Barry. My train-spotting days started at the north end of platform 5 at Crewe station, watching the class 50's take over the northern express trains from the electrics. My parents weren't best pleased whenI first started going there as an 11 year old. Got to see the very last of steam though.
Kev

 

[Dave Holt]

3845 surrounded by decent locos, I see.
On further reflection, the B&W photo I posted could have been late '60s as some of the Bulleids still had their injectors and copper pipework, and that didn't stay on for long, I bet.
Dave.

 

[Osgood]

That image of 2874 is up there with the best of the best (sorry, a Men-in-Black moment) in terms of sunlit rust hues - very atmospheric.

To some a depressing scene, but to me at the time of your photos Brian they still seemed to retain their dignity - once they had been stripped of boiler cladding to remove asbestos then that dignity was well and truly gone.

 

[Jordan]

I had assumed that they would be of limited interest "unless you were there"

But they are of interest to me because I wasn't there (never had the opportunity).

Same here - I wasn't there either, in my defence I was only just born in April '67!! I heard of the legendary 'Barry' about a decade later, but photos tended to be monochrome back then - since most (all?) railway mags were printed that way then.
I've never conciously sought out photos of Barry before; I imagine that at the time, it must've felt a very bleak place, like much of the railway as a whole after Beeching's Axe, et al.
But to see these photos now is fascinating stuff!!

 

[oldravendale]

3852 was withdrawn from Croes Newydd shed in February 1965 and arrived at Barry in July 1965. In August 1987 it was purchased for preservation and, while it is yet to run, rebuilding has continued. The owner is trying to find a set of coupling rods. It is currently located on the Northampton and Lamport Railway.



4110 was withdrawn from Severn Tunnel Junction in June 1965 and went to Barry in the following August. It was purchased for preservation in May 1979. It's been "round the block2, having been resold at least twice. I understand that the loco is currently at Cranmore for restoration which is scheduled to complete in 2023.



Finally for today 4144 withdrawn from Severn Tunnel Junction in March 1965 it was sent to Barry for scrap. It was bought in 1974 and moved to Didcot for restoration which was completed in 1997. Since restoration it's been seen at a number of other locations. It was withdrawn from service again in 2010 and overhauled once more. It is currently operational with a ticket to allow it to run until 2025.



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

I've never conciously sought out photos of Barry before; I imagine that at the time, it must've felt a very bleak place... But to see these photos now is fascinating stuff!!

I made just two visits to Barry, the first visit was sometime in the late 1960s, and was blessed with reasonable weather. At this remove my impression was one of visiting old friends (I lived near to the GW&GC Jt from '58 to '73 and there was a strong presence of ex-GWR engines up to the end of steam on the lines out of London). The second visit was about ten years later and the weather was cold, miserable and continuous. By this time the scene was fast approaching industrial dereliction with everything showing rust, mould and grass... without much paint to be seen apart from the messages -"reserved", "do not remove parts". This visit was to assist with the Great Western Society work programme to prepare engines for rail-movement to Didcot, I worked with the 38 Mob on cleaning axle journals and axlebox keeps.

What surprises me about Brian's photos so far is the number of ex-GWR engines which have the connecting rods in place - this suggests that those engines ran to Barry with steam in the boiler (so that the hydrostatic lubricator would provide steam oil to the valves and cylinders). I suspect that the engines with connecting rods were probably sent to Dai's yard before the mass cull when the later engines had their connecting and coupling rods removed for the final journey. For those engines which had the rods removed the rods were often loaded into the tender coal space, after all Dai was a business man and he was going to have to pay for those items.

regards, Graham

 

[oldravendale]

I noted that many of these locos had coupling rods in place, Graham, and sometimes connecting rods too. In the pictures above the 2-8-0 has no conn rods but the piston rod is intact. Closer inspection of the photos suggests that the piston rods have been gas torched off the two 2-6-2 tanks though. At this remove we have no way of knowing whether that was done before or after the locos arrived at Barry.

We'll see a bit later that by the following year many of the locos had been shunted around and some by a considerable distance within the yard so it could not have been achieved simply using pinch bars. Anyway I suspect a loco would be too heavy for this to work. I never noted a working loco, steam or diesel, to do this so wonder how the moves were accomplished. Maybe a diesel shunter was hired in for the purpose.

As I mentioned previously I'm pleased I went there and took the photos. With the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd taken some of the wagons and cranes as well!

Brian

 

[Simon]

Funnily enough, I was recently given a set of slides taken at Barry, which my friend Reg Dore (who paints locos at Didcot) scanned for me.

I think they are early 1970s, generally not as well taken as yours Brian, but possibly of interest.

Here is the Stanier mogul, which went to the Severn Valley I think.



And a rather "chalky" pannier, perhaps not quite ready to steam?




Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks Simon.

Those two photos are quite a bit later than mine, I think, judging by the condition of both locos. You'll be able to make your own comparison soon as I photographed both in 1967. We'll see whether I shot them again in 1968 when we get to that batch.

42968 still lives at the SVR and is under overhaul for the third time since preservation.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

We'll start today with a mystery loco. 4156 appears to have been removed from Barry and is recorded as scrapped at the end of July in 1980. The final shed was Severn Tunnel Junction from where it was withdrawn at the end of June 1965. My digging on line has revealed nothing else (help, Daifly!) Anything additional at this time would be surmise on my part so I'm saying no more.



This I recorded as 4222 which never even made it to Barry. Clearly a slip of the pen, or maybe it had exchanged marked coupling rods with the real 4222 at some time. My limited knowledge doesn't even allow me to confirm this as one of the 2-8-0 tanks. I've checked through all those which have been in Barry and none of the numbers allow for a simple transcription error. If anyone has any thoughts about this they'll all be gratefully received.



Finally for today another 2-8-0 tank, 4247, this time in glorious black and white. It was withdrawn from Tondu in 1964. It was restored and has operated on the Bodmin and Wenford Railway although it currently awaits its next overhaul.

I used a roll of B & W film at the end of the day, as light was fading and the speed of my colour films prevented any further work with them, and some of these images are quite underexposed. The lens was wide open as well, so depth of field is poor.



Brian

 

[Osgood]

One (beneficial) aspect about this period Brian, that is very apparent in your images, is the almost complete lack of preservation graffiti.

 

[oldravendale]

Indeed that's quite noticeable, Tony. These photos were taken almost a year before the first loco left Barry for preservation. There was a contractual agreement between Woodhams and, I assume, all the other scrap yards and BR that the locos sold to them had to be scrapped and could not be resold. My guess is that put many early preservationists off the scent but some bold chappies challenged that agreement and once they had succeeded we saw all the other locos in the yard move in to preservation. I suspect that, when we get to the November 1968 photos we'll find a lot of the prime targets with the preservationist graffiti in place.

Brian

PS - Anyone any news on 4156 yet?

 

[Osgood]

Well - Peter Brabham claims to have witnessed it being cut up in front of his very camera in July 1980, could he have been mistaken as to its identity?

Note the wheels have been 'tagged' for SVR and have 4110 on the hub.
Of note that 4110 was the 100th engine to leave Barry - in 1979.
By this time SVR was the home of 4150, which had left Barry for Dean Forest Rly in 1973 - 4110 does not appear to have ever had a relationship with SVR so why are the wheel sets so marked? Perhaps SVR were at the time contracted to do some work on 4110's wheels?

Barry Scrapyard - The scrapping of GWR 4156

 

[Osgood]

By the look of the browned white paint in this Feb 1973 view, the wheels had been reserved by SVR a fair while prior to this shot:

4156 between 3862 and 4110.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for the research Tony. I guess this answers the question.

It now appears that 4156 was one of the locos which was sadly scrapped during a shortage of wagons. It would have been the perfect loco for one of the preserved railways. Whether the wheels ever got as far as the SVR perhaps we'll never know. I believe from memory but without proof that a 9F was also scrapped at some time during this period.

Brian

 

[daifly]

This I recorded as 4222 which never even made it to Barry. Clearly a slip of the pen, or maybe it had exchanged marked coupling rods with the real 4222 at some time. My limited knowledge doesn't even allow me to confirm this as one of the 2-8-0 tanks. I've checked through all those which have been in Barry and none of the numbers allow for a simple transcription error. If anyone has any thoughts about this they'll all be gratefully received.

Hi Brian
I have found 8 locos of the 42xx and 52xx series that were reported to be at Barry. Your photo shows none of those 8 although is definitely one of the 2-8-0s.
I have found four photos contemporary to yours by different photographers on Flickr that claim to show 4222 at Barry in spite of that loco allegedly being sold to a scrapper in Swansea.
34010 'Sidmouth' Woodhams' scrapyard
7927 'Willington Hall' Woodhams' scrapyard
A walk around Barry Scrapyard GWR 7927 Willington Hall, July 1965 Peter Brabham collection
Barry Island South Wales July 1968
I suspect that for some reason it was bought by Dai W and never made it to Swansea.
Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Dave. That's actually very helpful - at least there were others who thought the loco in question was 4222 which suggests to me that some part of the motion was stamped with that number. This in turn suggests that it is actually one of the preserved examples so I'm starting to question which one it could be. So far I've not come up with a way of determining this. I'll guess that somewhere there'll be someone who took a photo of every loco in Barry so we could then establish the proper identity by a process of elimination.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Here's your Christmas photos.

First 2-8-0T 4248. It's final allocation was Severn Tunnel Junction from where it was withdrawn in 1963 and went to Barry. It left Barry in 1986 and has gone to Swindon Steam Railway Museum where it is c0nserved on static display attempting to look like a loco going through the works.



This is 57XX pannier tank 4612 for which Simon provided a photo earlier. Its final shed was Cardiff East Dock from where it was withdrawn in 1965. It left the scrapyard in 1981 and went to the Keighley & Worth Valley Railway to supply spares for 5775. Restoration was carried out at the Flour Mills workshop and it then went to the Bodmin and Wenford Railway where it is now operational.



This is Hall 4930, the erstwhile Hagley Hall. It's final shed was Swindon from where it was withdrawn in December 1963. It arrived at Woodham's in April 1964. It was purchased by the Severn Valley Railway in June 1972 and was restored by September 1979. It is currently nearing the end of its latest overhaul.



Brian

 

[daifly]

Thank you, Dave. That's actually very helpful - at least there were others who thought the loco in question was 4222 which suggests to me that some part of the motion was stamped with that number. This in turn suggests that it is actually one of the preserved examples so I'm starting to question which one it could be. So far I've not come up with a way of determining this. I'll guess that somewhere there'll be someone who took a photo of every loco in Barry so we could then establish the proper identity by a process of elimination.

Brian

Hi Brian
I spent a lot of time yesterday going through the records of the 8 42xx etc. locos that are listed that went to Barry and, as I said above, your photo shows a loco that is not of one of them. Three of the locos (4253, 5224 and 5239 had raised footplates over the cylinders). 4247 had a high bunker handrail and a conspicuous weld line on the side tank, as did 5227. Although your photo of 4248 shows the ‘wrong’ side, contemporary and later photos show a cab shutter on the side that your photo shows an absence of. Other locos with a shutter 1968 or later are 4270 and 4277.
Having eliminated the 8 locos that went to Barry (all preserved in some form or another), we need to find another suspect. Why not a deal between a couple of South Wales scrappers. The deal if post-BR would presumably not be recorded in BR archives. Was exchanging bits of motion a commonplace occurrence? I suspect that your record of it being 4222 is accurate. It isn’t any of the others so there must have been at least one more of the class at Barry.
Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Hello Dave.

Thank you for expending so much energy on this. It remains something of a mystery, doesn't it? There's a problem in hoping that it was sold to Woodham's and then sold on to another scrap yard as 4222. The available "high level" evidence from BRDatabase suggests it was withdrawn from Llantrisant on 9th October 1964 and scrapped during February 1965 although it says not where. Stephenson Loco Society gives withdrawal as 12th October 1964, so not a million light years away. Rail UK says the last shed was Pontypool Road from where it was withdrawn on 31st October 1964 which may well be a "period end" date rather than the actual date of withdrawal. However it gives a scrapping date at Steel Supply Co Jersey Marine (near Pontypool) of 28th February 1965, the date confirming that on BRDatabase.

If those dates are correct I couldn't possibly have seen and recorded 4222 at Woodham's in November 1967.

I have no knowledge of whether or not it was possibly for rods to be exchanged between locos on the WR. It certainly happened on the SR as, when Steph and I went to photograph the T9 120 in pieces at the Flour Mill an inspection of the internal valve gear showed parts had been on an M7 previously - they were stamped with the full number. My memory tells me that the same applied to GWR locos. So, is it possible that the rods from 4222 were transferred to another loco when it was withdrawn? At that time record keeping was becoming very "relaxed" and in the knowledge that the transferee was likely to be withdrawn soon the exchange may not have been properly stamped.

This, then, brings us to the next problem, as the loco I recorded as 4222 is not, by all appearances and your research, one of the 42/52XXs known to have ever been at Barry. We therefore come full circle to the possibility that 4222 at Barry is not actually 4222 but another of the class which was sold on to another scrap yard and never recorded at Barry despite the number of people who visited the yard in the '60s and '70s.

Unless someone knows differently.........

Brian