Modelling GWR 4-plk opens in 7mm... which kit to choose?

Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Please note that this topic is concerned solely with those parts which form the sides and ends of the body - at the moment any wagon parts below the curb rail are outside the scope of this topic.

There are several S7 modellers whose era of interest can be loosely described as late Victorian / early Edwardian GWR... and there is one stand-out design of open wagon from that period, a four plank wagon for which construction started in the late Victorian period and continued into the early years of the Edwardian era. A drawing of this type of wagon can be found in GWR Wagons (pub. Tourret) and photos can be found in several other GWR wagon books ( J H Russell, pub. OPC)... there are several relevant drawings in the NRM GWR C&W catalogue so there is reasonable reference material.

Discussions amongst the group of modellers suggests that there is a common desire for an etched wagon underframe and appropriate work towards a set of etch parts is underway. Parts such as buffer stocks, bearing springs, coupling hooks (and springs) are likely to be 3D prints or lost wax castings.

The "elephant-in-the-room" is the wagon body - there are three suitable / appropriate / reasonable kits known to me, being:-

1/ WEP etch brass;
2/ Peco ex Webster polystyrene;
3/ Slaters ex Cooper-craft polystyrene.

The big question is this - "which kit ought to be considered as the starting point for the intended models and why?".

Not a trick question, maybe there is no "best" answer, just a case of seeing what others think about offerings as kits.

regards, Graham
 
Eastsidepilot

Eastsidepilot

Western Thunderer
Graham,
If all the chassis parts are going to be produced you haven't got to go much further to produce the body iron work. Make the bodies from real wood, laser cut 1.4mm birch ply, about right for 2 3/8" thickness of the planks which can have the separate planks lasered. A lot more authentic than plastic. :D

Col.
 
adrian

adrian

Flying Squad
Eastsidepilot said:
Graham,
If all the chassis parts are going to be produced you haven't got to go much further to produce the body iron work. Make the bodies from real wood, laser cut 1.4mm birch ply, about right for 2 3/8" thickness of the planks which can have the separate planks lasered. A lot more authentic than plastic. :D

Col.
Click to expand...
I'd always advocate using similar materials to the prototype where possible, follow the Chris Croft's bible and yes real wood for wagons is extremely appropriate, bows the right way and the interior is already the right colour and just needs a light weathering wash!
 
Overseer

Overseer

Western Thunderer
Dog Star said:
1/ WEP etch brass;
2/ Peco ex Webster polystyrene;
3/ Slaters ex Cooper-craft polystyrene.

The big question is this - "which kit ought to be considered as the starting point for the intended models and why?".
Click to expand...
My personal choice would be the Coopercraft kit. It is scale size (although I haven't checked the height - 2'7" from bottom of curb rail to top) and the details look like the photos. The Peco kit has odd looking door hinges and the wood grain on the exterior is not realistic for a painted wagon in service. The Peco kit has always been more expensive and the wheels are included which is annoying if you have to buy scale wheels as well. Etched brass open wagons have never done it for me, there is a lack of subtlety in the shape of plank lines etc. I have been meaning to get a kit to build W14076 in the early 1950s as seen in Figure 10 of A Pictorial Record of Great Western Wagons by JH Russell, must have been one of very few survivors by then.
 
Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Using thin ply is an attractive suggestion - some questions come to mind:-

1/ where to source ply of a scale thickness;
2/ where to have the sides/ends cut?
3/ how to model the washer plates and corner plates?

OK, using google ought to produce some information- maybe WTers might have some answers?

thanks, Graham
 
adrian

adrian

Flying Squad
Dog Star said:
Using thin ply is an attractive suggestion - some questions come to mind:-

1/ where to source ply of a scale thickness;
2/ where to have the sides/ends cut?
3/ how to model the washer plates and corner plates?

OK, using google ought to produce some information- maybe WTers might have some answers?

thanks, Graham
Click to expand...
1) what thickness do you need? - 0.8mm? 0.8mm BR Grade Birch Laser Plywood, 600mm x 400mm sheet
2) at 0.8mm cut by hand with a scalpel - if you read Chris Crofts articles he recommends a vertical cut on the plank line followed by a 45deg. chamfer cut on the lower plank to be realistic, probably not achievable with a laser cutter.
3) empty a can of beer/lager (preferably by imbibing) cut can with sharp scalpel, rub with wet and dry to get to base metal, when flat cut to size and fold. It's all there in Chris Croft's articles.

The pipe wagons I have yet to finish :oops: are birch ply cut with a scalpel and beer can corner plates.

pipe - 1.jpeg
 
AJC

AJC

Western Thunderer
Graham,

The only important question, were I in your position, anyway, would be 'how many do you want?'

If you're building the chassis from etches then there's a sunk cost in time built in but that should be relatively straightforward. If you're after more than about three, I'm here to tell you (from rueful experience) that building the bodies will drag if you do it from scratch, and I really like scratchbuilding wagons. The Coopercraft mouldings are excellent, easily adaptable and relatively affordable, in as much as things are affordable in 0. I'd look no further and save scratchbuilding for prototypes where there's no good alternative (or for one offs where there's fun to be had).

Your mileage, as ever, may vary.

Adam
 
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Dog Star

Dog Star

Western Thunderer
Thank you to all who have commented on this topic. I am glad that I asked the question because the replies are informative and relevant; it is time to think. take stock and make decisions.

Chris (@ChrisBr) and I have unbuilt examples for each of the possible kits and I expect that we shall have a compare and contrast event, using the responses above, at the our next tea and cake evening.

Thank you, Graham
 
Tony Overton

Tony Overton

Western Thunderer
I was hoping to combine Slaters/Cooper Craft bodies with highly accurate etched underframes, I like the sharp moulded detail polystyrene kits provide. However it seems the Slaters/Cooper Craft kit body side strapping is inaccurate, at least on kit 7011 for a Dia. O4, which if used unaltered would for me defeat the object of what is trying to be achieved.
Comparing a kit 7011 side against a sole bar and also measuring with Vernier callipers, it seems the door is undersize width wise resulting in the adjacent strapping and hinges being incorrectly positioned. I first noticed this when attempting to line up a side with a sole bar – they don’t! The inside height appears spot on. The dimensions were checked against GW wagon drawing number 20157.
It is possible to remove the offending moulded strapping and replace it with new, but that would be quite a job.

With the above in mind scratch build bodies using Plastikard might be easier.

As for etched brass open wagon kit bodies, I’m put off by the thinness of the sides created (though some say they can be lined to thicken them up) along with the lack of subtlety with planking.

As for using real wood, this is certainly an option. Not having any experience with wooden bodies myself I can’t comment but I do like the idea. I may need to ‘experiment’ to see if get along with it and can obtain the results I would like to achieve before going down that road. But then, is it that much different to working with Plasticard.

Finally 3D printing. This is something which should be given a good deal of consideration. From what I’ve seen it would create a body akin to something like the finely moulded Cooper Craft model kit detail wise. However, as I have no experience in this field I need to leave it to the experts. Though from observation I don’t like the grainy and or ribbing effect seen in some prints, albeit unpainted.

As for buffer stocks, bearing springs and coupling hooks. I’ve used ABS white metal castings along with etched and lost wax brass draw hooks previously and been fairly happy with them, but if good quality 3D prints or lost wax castings were made available I would fit those in preference.

For me, whatever is chosen, dimensional accuracy (given that original drawings and excellent reference books are available) and clean sharp detail are my watch words. I tend to aim high but not always get that far every time .............

Hope this helps.

Tony
 
Pencarrow

Pencarrow

Western Thunderer
To be fair to brass kits, I've built a couple of GWR open clay wagons from the WEP stable and their sides are built up. In the finished product, the brass kit plank thickness matches that of a plastic kit nicely. Obviously talking 7mm.
 
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