Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick, I'm in the same boat as you. The only alternative for me is to buy the kits then CAD the chassis and other bits that I need.
Len
Len
My 7mm dabblings
- Thread starter mickoo
- Start date
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
Your desire to build as accurate a model as you can is an entirely laudable ambition. You have my admiration in that ambition, as it is one I think we all aspire to to some degree.
As you have probably begun to realise, you may have to rein in that ambition to quite a degree - especially if you hope to have some completed models before the end of the century!
Don't forget all railway modelling has varying levels of compromise. You have to decide which areas you are willing to compromise in order to achieve finished and working models. If you don't make that choice, you are increasing the likelihood of shelf queens rather than completed models. I have more than enough of those, and I'm beginning to realise some of them may never see completion unless I make some hefty compromises!
(I am thinking of a particular Fowler dock tank, for example. The box has been a shelf queen for some considerable time, but I'm beginning to think I ought to spend some of the time I would otherwise be spending building for clients in order to make some more real progress with it.)
It is the art of compromise in our hobby which perhaps is the hardest to acquire. While the rest of us can advise from our own experiences, it's your choice in the end.
I fully agree with this, particularly as I approach my 102nd birthday! [I have actually added a few decades here].
There is a 4mm manufacturer - Dave Bradwell I think - who sells scalefour chassis kits etc. and in his adverts he uses the phrase 'Just Build it'. I like this.
I know most builders on this and other forums do not build kits 'out of the box' but to me this minimises the use of the thread to other potential customers of the kit that is being featured. And before you all shout me down - I know this is not the primary intention behind most build threads!
I don't know how many other readers of these threads will agree with me but I find it frustrating that most do not follow the build through logically from start to finish, including painting & finishing - and even worse - most never seem to get finished at all. So many of the threads seem to get bogged down in theory and side discussions and then just fizzle out. Maybe there is a case for documenting the entire build and then only uploading it when it is finished.
I greatly admire Mickoo's work as it is of an extremely high standard. I admire his attempts to put a recessed floor in our Class 47 [or was it 57] kit - BTW our new release ones will have a reccessed floor. The problem is though that I seem to recall that at around that point the build just stopped. Maybe Mickoo finished it off but anyway [and here I apologise if I am wrong] I don't think the rest of the build appeared online. Would he have finished the kit if it had been built OOB? - who knows.
I have several Finney, MOK & Piercy kits but - if I do at all - I will only ever build them OOB. I realise that I just will not have the time to make all the improvements that some of splendid builds on this forum have incorporated.
What I do know is that, like Heather, I too will have to make some compromises if I'm to build much before I go to that great smoked salmon eating party in the sky [hoping!]. The first compromise I would make though is just to have much less rather than more stuff that is less detailed.
DJP/MMP
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Your both right, it is all a compromise and I've yet to find my 'comfort' zone.
Ironically whilst nattering at Sudbury this last Sunday I opined that the number of spokes or whether the crank pin was in line with a spoke bothered me not one jot, I have to admit I was nearly thrown out of the door, yet none of the offended crowd were bothered about the 0.05 error in the side sheets between front and rear. We did all agree that knowledge can be detrimental to model making, if you know something you feel obliged to model it.
David, the 57 sits patiently under the bench, as does your 08, both builds didn't stop because of problems with the kit, or the struggle to add detail, in fact both kits were a dream to add detail too and their construction nigh on demanded that the modeller do just that, both kits stopped because my interest was diverted elsewhere. None of my shelf queens are there because of problems with the kit or struggling with parts, they are all there because I am weak willed and have found something more shiny somewhere else
As y'all can probably guess, I like adding detail, what I'm growing more to dislike, is having to fix basic things before I can add that detail, I shouldn't have to make new splashers because the kit ones are too narrow...irrespective of gauge modelled...they were wrong for all gauges, or cab roof's that are flights of fancy, a smoke box saddle that frankly I'd not use as a fishing weight or boilers with a 1 mm gap when rolled, these are not issues with a modellers desire to add detail, these are not items that one should accept a compromise on to finish a model....well, I don't think so anyway.
I've no issue with anyone who builds out of the box, we're all different and require different things from our hobby, I'm just a little more prickly than others LOL.
Knowing what I know now, would I buy another DA A3 (before it's withdrawn for the collection) probably not. Would I recommend it for anyone else, most certainly, value for money it's a very good kit, even if a little dated and for the majority of modellers will be more than acceptable.
I think Richard said the Finney A3 was a good starting point, a point I concur with, the DA one is a probably a step behind that.
The A1 should be much better as it's a much newer kit, certainly the tender went together with few issues, lets hope the loco follows
Ironically whilst nattering at Sudbury this last Sunday I opined that the number of spokes or whether the crank pin was in line with a spoke bothered me not one jot, I have to admit I was nearly thrown out of the door, yet none of the offended crowd were bothered about the 0.05 error in the side sheets between front and rear. We did all agree that knowledge can be detrimental to model making, if you know something you feel obliged to model it.
David, the 57 sits patiently under the bench, as does your 08, both builds didn't stop because of problems with the kit, or the struggle to add detail, in fact both kits were a dream to add detail too and their construction nigh on demanded that the modeller do just that, both kits stopped because my interest was diverted elsewhere. None of my shelf queens are there because of problems with the kit or struggling with parts, they are all there because I am weak willed and have found something more shiny somewhere else
As y'all can probably guess, I like adding detail, what I'm growing more to dislike, is having to fix basic things before I can add that detail, I shouldn't have to make new splashers because the kit ones are too narrow...irrespective of gauge modelled...they were wrong for all gauges, or cab roof's that are flights of fancy, a smoke box saddle that frankly I'd not use as a fishing weight or boilers with a 1 mm gap when rolled, these are not issues with a modellers desire to add detail, these are not items that one should accept a compromise on to finish a model....well, I don't think so anyway.
I've no issue with anyone who builds out of the box, we're all different and require different things from our hobby, I'm just a little more prickly than others LOL.
Knowing what I know now, would I buy another DA A3 (before it's withdrawn for the collection) probably not. Would I recommend it for anyone else, most certainly, value for money it's a very good kit, even if a little dated and for the majority of modellers will be more than acceptable.
I think Richard said the Finney A3 was a good starting point, a point I concur with, the DA one is a probably a step behind that.
The A1 should be much better as it's a much newer kit, certainly the tender went together with few issues, lets hope the loco follows
Ian@StEnochs
Western Thunderer
Hi Mick,
The stuff I use is 2mm x 2mm. The legs are just under 0.5 thick so the solder bridges the gap. Alternatively if its a really big gap you could use a bit of flat bottomed rail. I have some which has a foot width of 3mm and the web is 1mm thick.
Ian.
The stuff I use is 2mm x 2mm. The legs are just under 0.5 thick so the solder bridges the gap. Alternatively if its a really big gap you could use a bit of flat bottomed rail. I have some which has a foot width of 3mm and the web is 1mm thick.
Ian.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Anyway, onward!
After last nights stupendous dumb act it was full speed astern to rectify my cock up and damage...it was a mess, and no, no photo-graphical evidence remains
First up was a strip down of the parallel section and a hole cut in the front as well as repairs where necessary, then a backing strip was inserted and the gap filled with some brass flat bar I had lying around, a quick run over with a file and hey presto, a new boiler section.
The local chop should would be proud!
Next up a basic alignment test
Sits reasonably square in all planes so onto the next step of joining them ready for final seam soldering.
Way down there is the bolt for fixing the cone and parallel parts together, try as I might I failed miserably to get the nut on no matter what sort of implement, special or otherwise was used, until, I stuck it to my finger with double sided tape.
Look Ozzy, no blood!
The next step was a temporary placing on the loco and just for the hell of it a quick look to see if all the effort I put into the stays was worth it.
Yup all visible, present and correct It's easier to see with the eye as the camera flash is casting some dark shadows down there. So yes, all the effort was worth it.
Quick look from the front
Oh dear, there's a little kick to the firemans side. Not sure which joint is doing this (the cab front is square on the footplate) but a small trim between the firebox and cone section on the drivers side should correct this, I think a shave of a few tenths of a mil will kick the boiler back square. It will pull square and down if I screwed it through the saddle, but that just puts stresses all the way back to the cab front and starts to twist that, which then stresses the joints with the side sheets, far better to trim it out elsewhere so it all sits nicely.
Finally a gratifying profile check, I need to do this with the telephoto lens really, but the software has a little tweak tool to straighten wide angle shots, basically we're checking for;
boiler parallel to rail - check,
cab roof flat and parallel - check,
footplate square and parallel - check,
firebox hump - check, all looking good so far.
The shot does just show the hint of the ghastly hole in the cone section of the boiler over the rear splasher, I can see this annoying me until I eventually do something about it, I'll let that slumber whilst I do something else.
Next up, tweak the cone to firebox joint to lift the hump up a fraction more and kick the boiler left a little then a whole new saddle, the cast one is just, well, wrong and finally a look in the box at the ashpan and lower firebox bits and see what's needed to close off that area under the footplate.
After last nights stupendous dumb act it was full speed astern to rectify my cock up and damage...it was a mess, and no, no photo-graphical evidence remains
First up was a strip down of the parallel section and a hole cut in the front as well as repairs where necessary, then a backing strip was inserted and the gap filled with some brass flat bar I had lying around, a quick run over with a file and hey presto, a new boiler section.
The local chop should would be proud!
Next up a basic alignment test
Sits reasonably square in all planes so onto the next step of joining them ready for final seam soldering.
Way down there is the bolt for fixing the cone and parallel parts together, try as I might I failed miserably to get the nut on no matter what sort of implement, special or otherwise was used, until, I stuck it to my finger with double sided tape.
Look Ozzy, no blood!
The next step was a temporary placing on the loco and just for the hell of it a quick look to see if all the effort I put into the stays was worth it.
Yup all visible, present and correct
It's easier to see with the eye as the camera flash is casting some dark shadows down there. So yes, all the effort was worth it.Quick look from the front
Oh dear, there's a little kick to the firemans side. Not sure which joint is doing this (the cab front is square on the footplate) but a small trim between the firebox and cone section on the drivers side should correct this, I think a shave of a few tenths of a mil will kick the boiler back square. It will pull square and down if I screwed it through the saddle, but that just puts stresses all the way back to the cab front and starts to twist that, which then stresses the joints with the side sheets, far better to trim it out elsewhere so it all sits nicely.
Finally a gratifying profile check, I need to do this with the telephoto lens really, but the software has a little tweak tool to straighten wide angle shots, basically we're checking for;
boiler parallel to rail - check,
cab roof flat and parallel - check,
footplate square and parallel - check,
firebox hump - check, all looking good so far.
The shot does just show the hint of the ghastly hole in the cone section of the boiler over the rear splasher, I can see this annoying me until I eventually do something about it, I'll let that slumber whilst I do something else.
Next up, tweak the cone to firebox joint to lift the hump up a fraction more and kick the boiler left a little then a whole new saddle, the cast one is just, well, wrong
and finally a look in the box at the ashpan and lower firebox bits and see what's needed to close off that area under the footplate.
Dog Star
Western Thunderer
Take a piece of half-hard 1/8" square balsa, cut end square, attach nut to end of balsa and fiddle away. There are a couple of methods of securing the nut to the balsa:-
* chamfer end of balsa and impale nut on end;
* blob of blu-tak on end of rod, press onto nnut;
* smear of UHU on end of balsa, press nut on end;
* double sided ticky tape on end of balsa.
regards, Graham
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Don't know what all the fuss was about LOLSee, I knew you'd get there
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
That big hole in the smoke-box cries out for detail
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Maybe, but to add a near scale diameter tube plate will require that face plate to be removed or thinned even more to accept an under scale diameter one, I've already gone two steps backward with the cone section of the boiler and splashers, by mis-cutting the splasher tops, so new splashers required later today with the correct cut out once the hole in the boiler cone is filled. I'm not discounting it, just not rushing into that area just yetThat big hole in the smoke-box cries out for detail
mickoo
Western Thunderer
That'd work, except the access is angled and a straight run at the nut isn't possible, ergo finger and sticky tape
These are only temporary fixings as once the seam is soldered then the nuts and bolts will be removed...I need them elsewhere. I could of soldered the nuts onto one face, but again the angled access precludes the use of a screwdriver, and as noted above I need the bits elsewhere.None the less all the advice is duly noted
for a time when I can use it 
mickoo
Western Thunderer
As is normal with modelling, it goes in great leaps or baby steps, it's getting close to narrowing down which loco I'll finally have and then looking for specific details etc.
Until now I've been keeping things as generic as possible, but the A3 class varies quite a bit with small details. I've not got a 'special' locomotive in my mind other than it has to frequent the southern GN zone and mix with Deltics and early diesels, in short, seen at Kings cross in the summer of 62.
The kit does force you down a couple of paths by default, there's a GN coal rail tender in there, though at purchase from DA you can specify different ones, but as mine is second hand it came with a GN tender.....much as I dislike them I'm coming to one of those compromises Heather and David noted Much as I'd prefer a high sided one I'll just run with this one in the kit to get it finished. That in it's self isn't too much of a problem as armchair research coupled with the other constraints in the choices the kit leaves is actually the easier option.
The second choice forced on this particular model is the frame set up, being as it was second hand it had all the holes cut out for ovals and the easiest way forward was just to fill the ones to bring it up to 1962 standards, this automatically removes a large block of prototypes to chose from. Happily these 4 oval framed locos tended to migrate to the Southern end of the ER in 62
The final choice is the boiler, whilst there are three types of dome supplied, only two are applicable to 1962 locos, the domed and streamlined, the banjo shape is from an earlier period. This leaves you with three choices, 94A, 94HP and 107, the 107 has a different firebox and is an A4 boiler fitted to an A3. The kit firebox is for the 94 series so that's decided for you, to change to 107 you need to extend the throat plate area forward to give the combustion chamber area and move a couple of mud hole doors.
Sticking with the boiler there are two further....there may be more....small details to consider. The first is the safety valve positions, the original location is toward the rear of the firebox top but later some were moved toward the middle clothing band, fore or aft is your choice.
The second is the smokebox wrapper, some locos have a row of rivets around the circumference, to hold the faceplate in position I presume. Most are welded but the riveted ones pop up here and there, I suspect it's a handful of boilers doing the rounds as they appear and disappear on the same loco at different dates.
I haven't narrowed it down yet as to exactly which locos and which dates had rivets, but boiler records are very detailed and complete for the whole class, maybe that'll be something to do in the arm chair tonight whilst the movie is on and sipping some wine
So where does that leave this little story? For my subject I need a 4 oval frame, 94 boiler safety valves forward GN tender and welded smoke box wrapper.
The images below are self explanatory I hope, tender colours denote type, tan is GN, blue is smooth (A4) high sided and green is beaded (A3) high sided. The order L787 is the NBL built locos and these differ in a couple of areas, the most obvious is the fish belly reversing rod which they retained even after conversion to LH drive.
For completeness the 107 boilers.
In both cases there are gaps in the positions of the safety valve position, more so the 107 boilers as at this moment in time are not a priority. Of note is 60062 which was shopped mid year and changed from a 107 to a 94A boiler and swapped tenders, 60066 was also shopped mid year but retained a 107 boiler and changed sheds at the same time.
There are a handful of locos missing as these were scrapped before summer 62 so the list is what was running on the ER at that time.
Now the model.
Some basic alignment tests show that the boiler is too short, by, yes you guessed it, 1 mm
the parallel / cone join should line up with the intermediate splasher joint with the footplate and the front face should line up with the valve cover and outside cylinder mounting flange. The end result is that a 1 mm segment will be inserted between the firebox and cone section of the boiler, this leaves more of a gap to fit a correctly formed firebox front, the castings of which seem to have vanished from the kit....probably the previous owner.
The other niggle, and very out of character for a DA kit are the mud hole detail plates, DA often supplies more than enough to cover these points, on the A1 there are eight in the kit and you only need four, in the A3 there's a dozen wash out detail plates for nine locations, yet for these six holes, there's only four overlays. The end result is two need to be scratch built and getting them to match the others will be hard for the sake of uniformity.
The hole in the boiler was filled, yes I knew it's come to that and the splashers trimmed to suit, I'm pleased I did it as it throws the light in those areas much better and gives a better sense of mass.
Onward!
Until now I've been keeping things as generic as possible, but the A3 class varies quite a bit with small details. I've not got a 'special' locomotive in my mind other than it has to frequent the southern GN zone and mix with Deltics and early diesels, in short, seen at Kings cross in the summer of 62.
The kit does force you down a couple of paths by default, there's a GN coal rail tender in there, though at purchase from DA you can specify different ones, but as mine is second hand it came with a GN tender.....much as I dislike them I'm coming to one of those compromises Heather and David noted
Much as I'd prefer a high sided one I'll just run with this one in the kit to get it finished. That in it's self isn't too much of a problem as armchair research coupled with the other constraints in the choices the kit leaves is actually the easier option.The second choice forced on this particular model is the frame set up, being as it was second hand it had all the holes cut out for ovals and the easiest way forward was just to fill the ones to bring it up to 1962 standards, this automatically removes a large block of prototypes to chose from. Happily these 4 oval framed locos tended to migrate to the Southern end of the ER in 62
The final choice is the boiler, whilst there are three types of dome supplied, only two are applicable to 1962 locos, the domed and streamlined, the banjo shape is from an earlier period. This leaves you with three choices, 94A, 94HP and 107, the 107 has a different firebox and is an A4 boiler fitted to an A3. The kit firebox is for the 94 series so that's decided for you, to change to 107 you need to extend the throat plate area forward to give the combustion chamber area and move a couple of mud hole doors.
Sticking with the boiler there are two further....there may be more....small details to consider. The first is the safety valve positions, the original location is toward the rear of the firebox top but later some were moved toward the middle clothing band, fore or aft is your choice.
The second is the smokebox wrapper, some locos have a row of rivets around the circumference, to hold the faceplate in position I presume. Most are welded but the riveted ones pop up here and there, I suspect it's a handful of boilers doing the rounds as they appear and disappear on the same loco at different dates.
I haven't narrowed it down yet as to exactly which locos and which dates had rivets, but boiler records are very detailed and complete for the whole class, maybe that'll be something to do in the arm chair tonight whilst the movie is on and sipping some wine
So where does that leave this little story? For my subject I need a 4 oval frame, 94 boiler safety valves forward GN tender and welded smoke box wrapper.
The images below are self explanatory I hope, tender colours denote type, tan is GN, blue is smooth (A4) high sided and green is beaded (A3) high sided. The order L787 is the NBL built locos and these differ in a couple of areas, the most obvious is the fish belly reversing rod which they retained even after conversion to LH drive.
For completeness the 107 boilers.
In both cases there are gaps in the positions of the safety valve position, more so the 107 boilers as at this moment in time are not a priority. Of note is 60062 which was shopped mid year and changed from a 107 to a 94A boiler and swapped tenders, 60066 was also shopped mid year but retained a 107 boiler and changed sheds at the same time.
There are a handful of locos missing as these were scrapped before summer 62 so the list is what was running on the ER at that time.
Now the model.
Some basic alignment tests show that the boiler is too short, by, yes you guessed it, 1 mm
the parallel / cone join should line up with the intermediate splasher joint with the footplate and the front face should line up with the valve cover and outside cylinder mounting flange. The end result is that a 1 mm segment will be inserted between the firebox and cone section of the boiler, this leaves more of a gap to fit a correctly formed firebox front, the castings of which seem to have vanished from the kit....probably the previous owner.The other niggle, and very out of character for a DA kit are the mud hole detail plates, DA often supplies more than enough to cover these points, on the A1 there are eight in the kit and you only need four, in the A3 there's a dozen wash out detail plates for nine locations, yet for these six holes, there's only four overlays. The end result is two need to be scratch built and getting them to match the others will be hard for the sake of uniformity.
The hole in the boiler was filled, yes I knew it's come to that and the splashers trimmed to suit, I'm pleased I did it as it throws the light in those areas much better and gives a better sense of mass.
Onward!
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mickoo
Western Thunderer
Look what I've just found !
After! Having cut out two new ones from 0.010" brass and fitted to the firebox.
This is doubly fortunate as I've just lost one of the original four I had, and it was whilst looking for that on the floor that I spotted this etch wedged down the side of the work bench. It also has another spare part 55, ideal for the two extra holes I have to put in the firebox front corner, problem is I really need two of them
Right, off to take off the two replacements I'd made and fit these
After! Having cut out two new ones from 0.010" brass and fitted to the firebox.
This is doubly fortunate as I've just lost one of the original four I had, and it was whilst looking for that on the floor that I spotted this etch wedged down the side of the work bench. It also has another spare part 55, ideal for the two extra holes I have to put in the firebox front corner, problem is I really need two of them
Right, off to take off the two replacements I'd made and fit these
mickoo
Western Thunderer
More glacial progress, so much time wasted on two fillets of brass.
The drivers side fits nicely, the footplate is a little springy so I'm hoping the gaps will close up when all bolted down, I don't really want to solder the firebox to the footplate as it'll make painting awkward, but then again I hate gaps in seams, especially where on the real loco the clothing just passes through the footplate at this point.
The wash out plugs needed some work, the kit has half etched rivets on the covers, these needed filing off and two small holes drilled, I also need to add the backing piece down in the front left corner where the sanding rod and reversing rod come out of the clothing.
The firemans side is a little worse off
like a numptie, I cut the front face a little short at the bottom and there's a small gap between it and the footplate near the splasher, so some remedial work required there with a backing strip and a small fillet to fill the gap. There should also be a small hole similar to the drivers side but much smaller for a couple of cables to come out from behind the clothing, I think these are the belden cables used to activate the cylinder steam cock mechanism up front.
The blend between the cone part of the boiler and firebox front needs a little more work and both sides need some flood solder in there to blend it all in, though I may opt for automotive filler as it's easier to work with, finally two new wash out plugs need adding to the curved front edge.
The drivers side fits nicely, the footplate is a little springy so I'm hoping the gaps will close up when all bolted down, I don't really want to solder the firebox to the footplate as it'll make painting awkward, but then again I hate gaps in seams, especially where on the real loco the clothing just passes through the footplate at this point.
The wash out plugs needed some work, the kit has half etched rivets on the covers, these needed filing off and two small holes drilled, I also need to add the backing piece down in the front left corner where the sanding rod and reversing rod come out of the clothing.
The firemans side is a little worse off
like a numptie, I cut the front face a little short at the bottom and there's a small gap between it and the footplate near the splasher, so some remedial work required there with a backing strip and a small fillet to fill the gap. There should also be a small hole similar to the drivers side but much smaller for a couple of cables to come out from behind the clothing, I think these are the belden cables used to activate the cylinder steam cock mechanism up front.
The blend between the cone part of the boiler and firebox front needs a little more work and both sides need some flood solder in there to blend it all in, though I may opt for automotive filler as it's easier to work with, finally two new wash out plugs need adding to the curved front edge.
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Hello Mike,
I'm not sure about Belden cables for the drain taps as most of them were ether rod or steam operated (but the L.N.E.R. could have been different). In the photo below you can see the drain tap operating lever it's on the drivers side, so unless it crosses over to the fireman's side? A throw back to right hand driving?
In this photo by DEMU1037, it looks like two cables and a rod. The rod could be for the front damper? One of the cables for the AWS? But the second cable?
Sorry to be a pain, I don't know as much as you about L.N.E.R. locos. The small gap at the bottom of the firebox clothing sheet could be coverd by the footplate step?
A nice looking build.
OzzyO.
PS. all photos copyright and only used for information.
I'm not sure about Belden cables for the drain taps as most of them were ether rod or steam operated (but the L.N.E.R. could have been different). In the photo below you can see the drain tap operating lever it's on the drivers side, so unless it crosses over to the fireman's side? A throw back to right hand driving?
In this photo by DEMU1037, it looks like two cables and a rod. The rod could be for the front damper? One of the cables for the AWS? But the second cable?
Sorry to be a pain, I don't know as much as you about L.N.E.R. locos. The small gap at the bottom of the firebox clothing sheet could be coverd by the footplate step?
A nice looking build.
OzzyO.
PS. all photos copyright and only used for information.
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Guys,
I think you mean Bowden cable; Belden are a manufacturer of conventional wire and cable. A Bowden cable is a flexible mechanical linkage - 'wire in tube'...
Steph
I think you mean Bowden cable; Belden are a manufacturer of conventional wire and cable. A Bowden cable is a flexible mechanical linkage - 'wire in tube'...
Steph