Strictly LNER pre-1942, including pre-group. "Atlantic 3279" in exile.

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Graeme King

Active Member
After deciding that the colour of the dried Railmatch green on my 4-8-2 was a hopelessly "too brown" mis-match compared to the shade I've tried to standardise on several other locos over the last ten years or so, I kicked myself for forgetting that I had previously demonstrated that Railmatch Doncaster green alone does not match the contents of the particular tin of Precision paint that I had cherished! :(I then even remembered that I had determined that a specific mixture of Railmatch Doncaster and Darlington greens was required to create a similar colour, but I could not find the test cards I had once painted, so I had to work out the mixing ratio again. Anyway, that is now done, a lesson has been re-learned, and another round of masking and spraying has put the loco and tender into the necessary "greener shade of green", a believable LNER colour to my eyes and not conflicting wildly with either the home-painted or the RTR loco finishes in my fleet. Green rather than pale khaki! :thumbs:
 
Chas Levin

Chas Levin

Western Thunderer
Graeme, I sometimes feel we need a slightly wider range of reaction emojis on this forum - RMWeb has the 'Friendly/Supportive' heart one that I'd have used here. The frustration of not getting quite the right hue is one I know well: hope you're happy with the new result?
 
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Graeme King

Active Member
The multiple variables that influence digital image colour rendering may or may not allow the improved shade of green on the 4-8-2 model to be perceived in the views below, but here it is, after an additional attempt at a unifying coat of satin varnish over the unduly glossy black and the originally very sheen-less green. I've also made a start on application of HMRS transfers, which so far amounts to little more than a "token effort" compared to the fully lined finish that the model eventually needs, but having lost time in connection with the colour spraying, and with other things needing to be done at present, I don't expect to get much further with the lining until the show at Lincoln is over. If I do get a lot further, please consider notifying the Vatican of a possible miracle.
IMG_20260206_200652.jpg

IMG_20260206_200759.jpg

I selected a number in the low 2400s as many of these had been made available again by 1939 following the withdrawal of all of the Raven A2s and the former H&BR J28s. I avoided one of the numbers actually carried by the A2s as I did not particularly want to feel in any way that I ought to re-use the associated name - well neither of the two for which 247 Developments offer nameplates anyway. My loco will have to be "as originally put into traffic" prior to naming.
I will in due course be swapping out the six currently plain green coupled wheels, replacing them with a lined set I bought in the halcyon days when Hornby spares were readily available at highly acceptable prices from East Kent Models...
 
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Graeme King

Active Member
Mike Trice said:
The difference between Railmatch and Precision is quite subtle:
View attachment 257044

I don't know if it is my eyesight but the difference seems more marked when I view the image vertically rather than horizontally as posted.
Click to expand...

Interesting Mike. I think my tin of P50 may be a slightly brighter and less brown shade than yours, which if correct does not improve confidence in the batch-to-batch consistecy of the Phoenix Precision paint. When I first obtained it, I was pleased that the shade was certainly brighter than that in my previous (first) tin of P50 which I had thought too dark! I'm not certain of course that the Railmatch version is consistent from jar to jar.
 
Chas Levin

Chas Levin

Western Thunderer
Interesting, gents. I'd agree the difference (PPP & Railmatch) is subtle, but it's certainly there.

If you have a tin Graeme that's seemingly different, I should imagine it's more likely due to ageing: I've found PPP tins to be extrmeely consistent in hue (no connection, just a happy customer).

I'd also hesitate to make a judgement by comparing you real-life tin with Mike's photo (different light, live vs. photo, backlit screen etc).

Interesting Mike that you get a different result horizontally and vertically; I've had similar experience. I think it is an eyesight thing (unless the two samples are in a position where the light is striking them differently, perhaps at different angles, or one is nearer a reflective surface) but I don't mean that it's an eyesight fault. I think - sometimes anyway - it's to do with the different way the eye moves between two samples, vertically and horizontally. Alternatively, it may be to do with field of vision: we may be able to hold two samples in the same eyeline horizontally more easily than vertically (or vice versa) so that the brain makes an instant, or more effective, comparison then when we have to move between them...?
 
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Graeme King

Active Member
I don't think the ageing idea works in the case of my tin of Precision P50, nor does my experience suggest that colours in tins of P50 are highly consistent:
The first tin of P50 I bought, probably late in 2005, even when "stirred to death" gave a green finish that I felt was too dark for LNER loco green, although not at all brown in character. I wasn't at all happy with the look of the couple of locos I painted with that, and only "tolerably" satisfied when I'd weathered the finish sufficientlt with a dusty tone to lighten it somewhat. I no longer have a pure sample of that paint to show as it hardened completely in the tin long ago and I disposed of it.
When I bought my second tin, late 2013 or early 2014, I was delighted to see the brighter, more golden hue of the thoroughly stirred paint in it, and the colour it produced when sprayed on a loco. Whether it is absolutely correct, or a rogue tin, I do not know, but it pleased me and that is now my standard which I am keen to perpetuate so that any future loco paint jobs will match half a dozen or so I already have in that colour which seems to be very compatible with the Bachmann version(s) of LNER green and not horrendously at odds with the Hornby Pacifics, P2s, new-tooling B12 and D16 that I have.
Last week I eventually decided to remove the hard skin as fully as possible from my second tin of P50 sludge and progressively stirred in more and more white spirit in a prolonged attempt to turn it back into something that I could at least use to brush paint a sample colour patch. It was full of horrible "bits" in the end but was of a brushable consistency and it dried - to just the same shad as seen on the past locos I've painted with it but have not weathered.
The large green patch on the RIGHT in this first image is the multi-stage digital re-interpretation of that brush painted P50 sample, photographed in this morning's daylight. On the LEFT is the browner green from a jar of Railmatch 620 which I think I purchased last year.
colour chip 1.jpg
This second image shows the P50 in the square on the far LEFT, the 620 in the square on the far RIGHT, and some other sample patches of Railmatch 621 "Darlington" green plus some mixtures of the two Railmatch greens.
colour chip 2.jpg
These images of course can only help to show the differences, not the colours that are perceived by real-life viewing with the human eye. The differences are slightly exaggerrated by the fact that the Railmatch has dried with a sheen, making it look darker, whereas the "rescued" P50 has dried dead matt, but that hasn't affected the "brownness" that is to me too evident in the 620 but not in the P50.

The difference between the Railmatch 620 and the Precison P50 in these samples is far more than a "subtle" one as I see colours. I pass normal colour vision tests easily and was almost perfect on a real (not online) Farnsworth-Munsell 100 hue test under proper lighting.
 
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Chas Levin

Chas Levin

Western Thunderer
Hm, interesting stuff Graeme. I took a long look at shades of green for one of a series of articles on GNR liveries in the Great Norther Railway Society's Journal, the Great Northern News. As you're not a GNRS member, would you like me to email you a copy of the article?
 
Chas Levin

Chas Levin

Western Thunderer
No problem - I've sent the Green and Black livery articles via email, I'll also send the Grey one. Hope they're of interest - Mike Trice also wrote a follow-up piece in the Great Northern News about the 'green' question.
 
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Graeme King

Active Member
Apologies for repetition, but may I remind those interested that Lincoln Exhibition, including my layout Thelnerby, is on at the County Assembly Rooms on Bailgate this weekend, both days, and the admission charge is very modest.
If you're there, please say hello - or something else...
 
Mercator II

Mercator II

Member
I still can't believe Thelnerby fits in your car!! But if a Tardis your Fiesta!!

Good luck with set up, see you all bright & early tomorrow for some fun running
 
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