Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

A plethora of Daves! Firstly thanks to Dave Genghis. That 9F is certainly a case in weathering. It'd probably be easier as a reference if in colour but for now we're continuing the black and white theme.

Thanks, Dave, for yours re diesel classes and to Yorkshire Dave for further clarification....and there's, to quote the bard, the rub. My reference to a Class 08 in a previous post and a Class 45 in post #3382 were, in both cases, generic. I understand that there were and maybe still are Class 09s which look to my unpracticed eye identical to the 08 and I couldn't tell a Class 44 from a 45 or a 46 although I do know a Hymek from a Western. As for their "original" titles as I took very little interest in diesels I couldn't name them off the top of my head and I'm not going to spend more time researching them. The easiest way forward will be to simply refer to "a diesel" and let those with better knowledge fill in the gaps in the same way as I refer to the Southern EMUs as EMUs and let Yorkshire Dave fill in the detail!.

As for the Jubilee, I agree Dave that I've probably unintentionally laid a peasant trap there, and if that photo could be of Boscawen it could be of a significant number of other locos. Perhaps we should leave it as simply "unidentified". Thanks for your efforts finding the shortest names too, Tim.

Crab 2-6-0 42897 light engine in Cricklewood Yard on 13th December 1962. By now it was a Nottingham engine and had been since December 1961 and from where it was withdrawn in April 1964. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works (RO) and was observed there awaiting cutting up on 3rd May 1964. (LCGB). BR Database agrees with a scrapping date of May 1964.



LMS 4F 0-6-0 44420 on a down mixed freight - or is it a milk train? - there are certainly milk tankers and a full brake in Cricklewood Yard on 13th December 1962. The loco had been at Derby since at least 1948, moved to Westhouses in December 1964 and was withdrawn in October 1965. (BR Database and SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in January 1966.

This is one of the photos which would benefit from a rescan to give a higher definition result so that the train could be studied quite closely.



One of my favourites of Tim’s photos and just so characterful of steam days. E4 0-6-2T 32557 at Waterloo on 13th October 1962 which we saw previously in post #2544. Although a Brighton engine by design it had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961. It was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).



Brian

 

[76043]

An unidentified 9F on freight at Cricklewood on 13th December 1962.

Post in thread 'Tim Mills' Photos' Prototype - Tim Mills' Photos

That shot of Cricklewood sandwiched between Hendon shots looks to me to be Hendon. The platform end signal and box looks the same and the yard at the end of the platforms is where there still is part of the old yard. The curves on Cricklewood station would suggest this is looking south, and there wasn't a yard in that direction on either side. Plus Hendon does dip down towards the flyovers.

Thanks for the Hendon shots, I used to commute via Hendon years ago after it had been bashed up by BR into the cold soulless bus shelter of a station it is now. I once waited from 8pm to midnight for a train on that platform and would have loved a warm waiting room.

Cheers
Tony

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've been giving some thought to the unidentified Jubilee at Hendon. A peer at a highly enlarged cab side suggests the number is 4564x which potentially gives a choice of 10. It also appears to have the Stanier short tender, Larry thinks so and I agree with him. This immediately rules out 5640 and 5642-5646 which all had the long wheelbase tender at that date. One should also perhaps consider where the class 1 train is going and in Dec 62 Derby or Manchester are the likely destinations which gives some clues to a loco shed and hence loco. Of the remainder we have,
5641 Sandwich 17B Burton
5647 Sturdee 3D Aston
5648 Wemyss 17B Burton
5649 Hawkins 17B Burton

Of these Sturdee is an unlikely candidate, the other three are Central Division locos, take your pick. This is all predicated on me correctly identifying grainy numbers on a distant cabside, I'm as likely wrong as right.
Martin

 

[daifly]

Martin

As I hinted at in post #3396, it certainly looks like 4564x on a big screen and the last digit looked like a 2 but I bow to your tender knowledge as I know nothing about Jubilees other than I saw a few at Bristol Temple Meads in 1962/3!

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for that correction, Tony. On studying the 9F picture there is no doubt that the photo was taken at Hendon so the description has been amended by way of an edit. I never cease to be amazed by the level of knowledge on this forum, and as has been said previously it's good to get these pictures out there now while there are people about who remember the locations as they originally appeared.

Martin and Dave - thanks for the continuing efforts to identify that Jubilee. I'm going to add your suggestions to the data which accompanies the photo but it will remain "unidentified" at the moment. It's interesting that you both came up with 4564x and have narrowed the filed significantly.

E4 32557, details as in the previous post, alongside an unidentified rebuilt Merchant Navy at Waterloo on 13th October 1962. Except I don't think that's an E4... It's probably an unidentified M7. However the E4 features in quite a few of the upcoming pictures. Note the headcode disc on the platform. I liberated one of those which is now in my clubroom in original condition. Last week I was asked if someone could "restore" it. My response is unprintable.



H16 4-6-2T 30517 light engine at Clapham Junction on 15th November 1962. This was allocated to Feltham in May 1961 where it was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. The Railway Observer reported the loco went to Eastleigh where it was scrapped week ending 2nd November 1963.



I remasked the photo above and it's here. However, it now looks a bit unbalanced and I'm inclined to use the original...



Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35018 British India Line on the 10.30am Bournemouth train at Clapham Junction on 15th November 1962. It had been allocated to Nine Elms from January 1961 and was withdrawn in August 1964 (SLS) going to Woodhams Bros at Barry which it left in 1980. In November 2016 it steamed again for the first time since it was withdrawn and is reported as being operational - see
35018 British India Line (SR 21C18 & Br 35018)



Brian

 

[AJC]

Definitely the rear of an M7, Brian. I feel that I ought to be able to work out which platform at Waterloo, but it’s been too long since I commuted from there. I really enjoyed the shot of the E4, with the mismatched bunker rails, welded patches and human interest.

Adam

 

[Barry37]

Definitely the rear of an M7, Brian. I feel that I ought to be able to work out which platform at Waterloo, but it’s been too long since I commuted from there. I really enjoyed the shot of the E4, with the mismatched bunker rails, welded patches and human interest.

Adam

Seems to be the end of platforms 9/10, as the large scale historic OS map helpfully distinguishes between SP and S Br - platforms 7/8 are shown with one of the latter on the slope and another beyond (partly obscured by the loco's rear end).

 

[Roger Pound]

Further to the 'Jubilee' mystery - whilst admitting to struggle with the figures I rather thought the last digit was a 1 - it looks very vertical. Thus, consider 45641 'Sandwich' (comprises eight letters - too long?) It was allocated to Burton from Sept 1961 and remained there until withdrawal in September 1964, so a definite candidate for work on the MML.

Just an alternative thought.......!

Roger. .

 

[LarryG]

The coach between the tank wagons in the 4F hauled freight train was an LMS Period l lavatory brake third to D1685.. Looks like it was there to provide accommodation for a guard.

 

[Martin Shaw]

The signal numbers on the bracket confirm the M7 and Merchant Navy are in platforms 9 & 10. There is nothng about the rear of the M7 that gives anything away however by Oct 62 there weren't that many still around and and using allocations as a starting point there were on that date four at Nine Elms, 30039/51/52/245. Nos 30051/52 were P&P fitted, the absence of any evidence under the buffer beam excludes them so the likely candidate is either 30039 or 30245. In Jan 63 30039 was exchanged with a WR withdrawn M7 so probably in poor condition so therefore the latter is the most likely, especially as it ended up being preserved in the national collection. There is an outside possibility that one of the others remaining in the class had crept in from somewhere in the sticks, but there were only a few outposts still using them, none that close to London. Clapham Waterloo ECS services changed to BR Std haulage in Nov 62 so Tim's photo might be one of the last occasions an M7 could be seen at Waterloo, perhaps that's why he took the picture.
Regards
Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Note the headcode disc on the platform. I liberated one of those which is now in my clubroom in original condition. Last week I was asked if someone could "restore" it. My response is unprintable.

Yes, it's best left in the LT Acton Museum 'as withdrawn' state.

 

[oldravendale]

Yes, it's best left in the LT Acton Museum 'as withdrawn' state.

We agree on that as you know, Dave.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your confirmation, Adam. In fact, looking at the next few pictures which will appear on here I think we'll be able to identify both the M7 and the MN. And Martin - I suspect we'll be able to confirm the number of the M7 very soon.

Barry and Martin. Thanks for the info regarding the likely platform numbers. As mentioned above there are more in this sequence which will probably cement that location.

Roger. I think that qualifies as a "likely" jubilee.

Thank you for your advice about that coach, Larry. It's making me more convinced that I should make a scan at higher resolution...

Clearly Clapham Junction again but there are no further details. That looks like an S15 possibly shunting and a diesel shunter possibly on empty stock. In view of the other photos on this strip I believe this to be 13th October 1962. This is another of those photos which will benefit from a rescan.



Rebuilt Merchant Navy 35027 Port Line on the down Bournemouth Belle at Clapham Junction on 13th October 1962. Seen previously in post #948 35027 had been at Bournemouth since June 1955 and was withdrawn in mid September 1966. This was another survivor from Barry which it left in 1982. It was restored but I'm unaware of current condition. For further details see 35027 Port Line



One of two Schools Class latterly fitted with a Lord Nelson tender 30921 Shrewsbury but with no nameplate (the other with a LN tender was 30912 Downside) at Clapham Junction Station on 13th October 1962. This was allocated to Nine Elms from August 1961 and withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering in May 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Continuing a theme...

8F 48445 on a freight for North London at Clapham Junction on 13th October 1962. However, I believe it’s a freight from North London as it appears to be on the line used by trains now which come from Milton Keynes to South Croydon. It is, however, difficult to confirm as the buildings in this part of London have changed significantly. 48445 was at Willesden from June 1962, then Rugby in April 1964, Nuneaton in June 1965, Lostock Hal in June 1966 and finally withdrawn in May 1968. (BR Database). Railway Observer report the engine at Wards, Beighton, Sheffield and BR Database report a scrapping date of September 1968.



There were a few GWR 57XX pannier tanks allocated to the SR intended as replacements for the M7s. This is 4698 at Clapham Junction on 13th October 1962. 4698 was loaned to Nine Elms initially in March 1959 but must have been regarded as satisfactory as it was allocated there at the end of June the same year. In July 1963 it moved to Treherbert, then Gloucester Horton Road at the end of August the same year, Bristol Barrow Road in May 1964 and finally back to Gloucester Horton Road in October where it was withdrawn in November 1965. (SLS). WHTS record it as at Ward’s, Briton Ferry, in January 1966 and BR Database that scrapping occurred in February 1966.



We've seen Schools 30921 Shrewsbury in the last post and on the same day at Clapham Junction, 13th October 1962.



Standard Class 5 4-6-0 73041 on a down Basingstoke train at Clapham Junction on 13th October 1962. At least, this is recorded as 73041 which, according to the SLS was a Weymouth Radipole engine at the time and had been since May 1961. Would it have found its way all the way to London? I’ve gone back to the original TIFF scan and the number certainly looks like 73041. It moved from Weymouth to Eastleigh in September 1964, then to Guildford on 6th June 1965 where it was withdrawn on 20th of the same month. Both the Railway Observer and BR Database report it as being cut up on site at Eastleigh Works by Cohen’s in December 1965. This was not without precedent as I witnessed a loco being cut up at Willesden MPD by an outside contractor after it had suffered collision damage and was therefore considered unsafe to travel. Perhaps this loco was also unsafe to travel and we may assume that the scrapyard at Eastleigh no longer operated as locos were being stored there before being sent to independent scrap yards via the concentration depot at Salisbury by 1965.



Brian

 

[daifly]

First photo is 48445 to my eyes!

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

First photo is 48445 to my eyes!

Dave

Absolutely right, Dave. Apologies to all - I took the original notes as gospel. I've altered the original post to reflect the correct number. Many thanks - but I'm interested to know what caused you to double check

Brian

 

[Martin Shaw]

I agree with Dave that it's 48445. Built by the GWR at Swindon official date 5/7/44, its allocations,
Derby 8/7/44, on loan to GWR 5/7/44 - 23/5/47, Didcot 8/44, Crewe South 14/6/47, Northampton 23/8/47, Northwich 31/10/53,
Northampton 14/11/53, Willesden 12/5/62, Rugby 21/3/64, Nuneaton 22/5/65, Stored serviceable 20/2/66 - 12/3/66, Lostock Hall 18/6/66,
Wdn w/e 4/5/68.

Your memory isn't failing Brian, its on the West London Extension Railway coming from somewhere norf of the river, quite likely Willesden en route to Norwood I suspect. The corner of Clapham Junc B signal box is on the LH edge of the pic and to the left of the train are Pigs Hill sidings, although what porcine event occasioned the name is lost in the mists.

I would also agree with the id of the Std 5 as 73041, perhaps slightly unusual to see a Weymouth engine in the London area but obviously possible. It was new in 1953 and transferred to the SR in 1958, for what possible reason I even at this distance cannot deduce. The SR was by no means short of Class 5 engines of their own making, why they needed more I do not know or understand.
Regards
Martin

 

[daifly]

Many thanks - but I'm interested to know what caused you to double check

50 years as an aviator. A clean sheet at the end of it. Trust nothing. Trust no-one (especially the aviator sitting next to you!)

Dave

 

[SimonT]

(especially the aviator sitting behind to you!)

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks, Martin, for the info about that 8F and also the Standard 5. All carefully retained and I have no idea either why the SR needed more Class 5 locos! Come to that, how did the unrebuilt Bulleid pacifics survive to the end of steam on the SR? (That's a bit rhetorical )

Thanks also, Dave... It's a good job I never had the opportunity to fly anything! I tried a simulator of a 747 a few years ago in Canada.... and crashed it.

Three here of the same subject on 13th October 1962, and even then we've seen it previously.

A general view of Clapham Junction including E4 0-6-2T 32557 light engine on 13th October 1962. We saw the loco previously in posts #2544 and #3401. Although a Brighton engine by design it had moved to Nine Elms in November 1961. It was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works by the end of October 1963. (Rail UK).



The same engine on empty stock at Clapham.



...and another of the same loco on the same empty stock.



Brian