Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Martin Shaw]

Some bits and pieces.

31624 According to the records it's on the last day of its final general overhaul, (9/5/61 - 3/6/61) there doesn't look as though there's much to do, no doubt the recorded date is an accountancy one. It was originally intended that it would be built as a K Class 2-6-4T A624 River Otter, the Sevenoaks accident rather put paid to that and the order for twenty tanks was changed to U class 2-6-0s.

The partly identified Q1 next to it is almost certainly 33016 which was in Ashford works for a LI-HI (30/5/61 - 1/7/61) which was mostly boiler work but did include both new and refurbished superheater tubes, not certain whether that's superheaters or flues.

31818 LI overhaul (16/5/61 - 10/6/61), all that's recorded is boiler work. It was a Hither Green enigne back in 1945,
B Arms 14/7/45, Redhill 20/4/46, Stewarts Lane 20/3/50, Dover 27/5/51, Tonbridge 10/2/61, Eastleigh 26/5/61, Exmouth Junc 1/2/62, Wdn 7/9/63.

31816 LC overhaul (31/5/61 - 17/6/61), details not recorded. It was also a Hither Green engine back in 1945, subsequent sheds,
B Arms 14/7/45, Redhill 20/4/46, Brighton 5/10/46, Redhill 10/8/47, B Arms 4/9/48, Redhill 8/1/49, Stewarts Lane 20/3/50, Dover 27/7/51,
Redhill 30/9/55, Eastleigh 26/5/61, Weymouth 22/7/63, Redhill 22/6/64, Guildford 18/1/65, Wdn 9/1/66.

The two engines were co allocated several times post war, seems odd and normal at the same time.

30932 Blundells was one of the few that remained in black livery until withdrawal and at one time had the high sided Lord Nelson tender which personally I feel didn't suit it. I have similar misgivings about the tender attached to Repton at the NYMR.
It went to B Arms 17/6/50, but was later allocated to Ashford 14/6/59. It was withdrawn along with 30919 Harrow on 2/61, stored Ashford shed 6-7/61, cut up Ashford works w/e 19/8/61.
30919s last shed was Brighton but after withdrawal stored Ashford works 2/61, cut up Ashford works w/e 11/3/61.
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Well, all that took a bit of catching up!

Adam, many thanks for starting the filling in of the details about the two cars and to Simon for expanding the info.

Mick - enormous help about the photos in Ashford. I spent quite a lot of time looking at the photos in order to try to establish the identities of the locos but made the assumption that the cranes would not have been moving while there were visitors in the workshops. I made several visits to BR works and never once saw any of the cranes in use so didn't expect there to be any evidence of such movements in these photos. That was a well picked up detail about the numbering on those Q1 side sheets as well, Paul, which helps to keep the mind focused on finding the missing beast. Martin - thanks for yours picking up some more detail and then extra info which gives credibility to all the background work with some confirmed dates. Thanks to you as well, Crimson Rambler for the interesting discussion about the S & DJR crane and to Simon and Tim for building additional info on the back of it.

Barry - thanks for more background to those workshops in the Shoreditch series.

Andy - thanks for yours regarding the traction engines/rollers. I'm rather doubtful that the cars and steam engines were taken at the same rally as they are on entirely different films but I can't rule out that possibility.

Then Tony, Adam, Dave, Tim and Arun for pulling together more details about the models and the Holden buildings. For me it's a case of Senate House hiding in plain sight. A really elegant building.

For today we'll continue on much the same theme as the last set of photos.

U1 2-6-0 31902 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It was allocated to Tonbridge in June 1959 and Exmouth Junction on 26th May 1961 - probably another early transfer not yet realised in conjunction with the Kent Coast electrification. (SLS). BR Database report a further move to Norwood Junction in October 1961 which seems likely but is not confirmed elsewhere. Both sources agree on withdrawal in November 1962. It was scrapped at Eastleigh Works week ending 5 January 1963. (RO).



Class C 0-6-0 31592 on Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. It had lived at Tonbridge since February 1960 and moved to Ashford in November 1961 (SLS) although this photo suggests that the physical move may have been a bit earlier. In this photo it's carrying no shed plate. It went to Departmental stock in July 1963 as DS 239 and was finally withdrawn in December 1966. 31592 (SECR 592, SR A592, SR 1592, BR 31592 & DS 239) The SLS has a strange allocation to Stewarts Lane in June 1962 but I suspect this is erroneous. Now on the Bluebell where it awaits another restoration.



Class N 31410 which appears to be newly overhauled. It's at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961 and carrying a 73A Stewarts Lane shed plate which was its allocation until July 1963 according to BR Database. Then it moved to Norwood Junction followed by Redhill in September 1963 and Guildford in December the same year being withdrawn from there in November 1964. (SLS). It went to Bird's, Morriston, Swansea (RO) where it was scrapped probably in early March 1965 - it was observed by the LCGB at Swansea East Dock on 28th February awaiting entry to the Bird's Yard.

Edit: Correction. The location is Tonbridge



More cars for todays bonus photos. Firstly a hearse of unknown (to me) antecedents with no date or location known. More info, please, from anyone who can supply more details.

Edit: An Austin hearse dating from 1925.

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.

The hearse is also an Austin, model 20/4 of 1926, reg 92 FLU.
According to info here https://www.imcdb.org/v019134.html it came from the Isle of Man and was re-registered. The DVLA record shows first registration in May 1963 (also year of manufacture as 1963, but that could be an error from the computerisation of old records).
So if our event is June 1963, this would have been one of its first outings after re-registration.

Behind the hearse (post #3343) is a 1937 Austin 16-6 reg EKE 333 - photo here



Another unknown vehicle. I read the registration as NT or MT8736 but I don't recognise the make.

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.

The pick-up is an Overland 25cwt, reg NT8738, first registered July 1926 - other photo here
From wikipedia:
Willys Overland Crossley was a company jointly owned by Crossley Motors and Willys-Overland. They had factories in Stockport, England; Berlin, Germany; and Antwerp, Belgium. The company was formed in 1919 and continued until 1934.[1] They manufactured cars, buses and trucks.

In 1919, Crossley Motors and John North Willys on behalf of Willys-Overland agreed to set up a British operation to import, manufacture and sell a high volume of cars based on the Overland 4 model. Crossley Motors provided the Heaton Chapel, Stockport aircraft factory they had recently bought from the government after the end of World War I. This factory was large enough to include a covered test track. Production started in 1920 with the assembly of kits bought in from the Willys-Overland Canadian plant. WOC's first design contribution was to offer British bodies to fit the Model 4's chassis. The Willys-Knight sleeve-valve-engined car was also offered.



Finally clearly a fire engine with extending ladder but again no details known.

Edit: it’s a Leyland Metz with a 100ft turntable ladder, dating from the mid-1930s.

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.

Fish and chip van behind the fire engine is most likely 1930 Dennis GL Type reg GK9430 - more recent photo here - Now retired as an active fish & chip van it remains in the Saunders Collection (Bedford area). Was new to the Joe Lyons group as a mobile refreshment & gift shop for their 'Black & Green' tea brand.



Brian

 

[Heather Kay]

The extended ladder belongs to some species of Leyland. I might be able to dig up more details in time.

(EDIT: obviously, it’s a Leyland Metz with a 100ft turntable ladder, dating from the mid-1930s. I’ve got a part-built 4mm scale kit of one I really ought to finish one day. I started it last century!)

Theres a badge on the hearse's radiator which looks vaguely like the Austin wings, but I wouldn't bet on it.

(ANOTHER EDIT: a quick interweb search coughed up an Austin hearse with identical bodywork dating from 1925.)

I'm tempted to say the truck is a Ford, but I may well be entirely barking up the wrong tree. So many vehicles of the first half of the 20th century all looked so alike.

 

[mickoo]

Brian, ordinarily I'd agree and the 3rd Jun 61 is a Saturday though some workshops worked in the morning, maybe it was being parked up for the weekend. It's the same crane and it's in several places through out the photos so it looks like it must have moved.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for your further and better, Mick. I'd deffo made an assumption and we know that assumptions are the mother of all oh-goodness-me-I've- forgotten-the-word ups.

B

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Brian,

If I had not read your caption for 31410, I would have sworn that it was taken at Tonbridge, the 'hole' in the side cladding says it all for me.

kind regards

Mike

 

[AndyB]

Managed to find a picture of McLaren 1413 'May Queen' (3rd TE picture in post #3297 & comment in #3322) - on Facebook

Photo: Ken Pumfrey

 

[simond]

Brian, ordinarily I'd agree and the 3rd Jun 61 is a Saturday though some workshops worked in the morning, maybe it was being parked up for the weekend. It's the same crane and it's in several places through out the photos so it looks like it must have moved.

I can confirm that the 3rd June 1995 was also a Saturday, and it p155ed down.

I’ll add a photo of the wedding car (a “Star”, from Wolverhampton, same stable as “Guy” trucks I believe) tomorrow…

 

[Osgood]

For the record - WT, oldravendale, 76043 and AJC (in that order) have a lot to answer for

 

[Martin Shaw]

A few additions and date disagreements.

31902
Tonbridge 14/6/59, Exmouth Junc 26/5/61, Norwood Junc 10/10/61, Wdn 12/62, Cut up Eastleigh Works w/e 5/1/63. Irwell book of.
Tonbridge 5/59, Exmouth Junc 6/61, Norwood Junc 10/61, Wdn 11/62. Longworth.

Notice that the date of 10/10/61 has cropped up again, it must signify an accountancy date otherwise Norwood Junc would have been absolutely stuffed with surplus engines.

31592
Minor date issues Ramsgate 1/1/48, Nine Elms 5/59, Tonbridge 1/60, Ashford 10/61, Ashford Works 6/62, Renumbered DS239 7/63. Longworth.

31410
Firstly I am with Mike here, the location is most definitely Tonbridge rather than Ashford.

Ashford Shed


Tonbridge Shed

As to the loco it had just been overhauled, a GO at Ashford 27/4/61 - 20/5/61.
Happy Easter
Martin

 

[oldravendale]

Heather - You've done me proud with those descriptions. How you identified the turntable ladder as "obviously" a Leyland Metz I guess I'll never know, but I suspect you'll have an audience when you come to complete the model.

Mike and Martin. Thank you both for putting the location of that picture right and furthermore documentary evidence! Thanks also, Martin, for the additional and probably better details.

Andy. Thanks to you for expanding the info about the traction engine photos. There are more to come but quite when they'll get to these pages I'm, uncertain.

Simond - so where's the picture of the "wedding car"...?

Tony. I agree with you and I may even try to get hold of a copy of that book to read but it's a rabbit hole I'm currently trying to avoid.

I originally had this down as Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley but that's figured a bit earlier and was in original condition so this can't be. In any event it's a rebuilt Battle of Britain on an up boat train at Ashford on 3rd June 1961.

Edit: The rebuilt BoB is 34077 603 Squadron (City of Edinburgh). Of the 10 locos 3407x, only two were rebuilt and the other one, 34072 257 Squadron had gone to Exmouth Junc on 24/2/58. 34077 was a Stewarts Lane engine until transfer to Nine Elms on the 26/5/61, a date we've come across a lot recently.

It then went to Feltham in September 1964 and Eastleigh in November the same year where it was withdrawn in March 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore's. Newport, in August 1967. (BR Database).




Q1 33037 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. This had been a Tonbridge engine since June 1959 until a book transfer in late May 1961 to Eastleigh. (SLS). Again it may be a transfer in advance of actuality. It carries a 74D shed plate which was correct for that shed until 1958 when it became 73J so it probably didn't know where it was! I also suspect this photo may be at Tonbridge rather than Ashford so comments will be appreciated. It was withdrawn from Eastleigh in October 1963. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it was cut up at Eastleigh week ending 26th October 1963.

Edit: Correction.
33037 is definitely at Tonbridge, my Grandparents lived in a cottage adjacent to the building (a pub whose name escapes me) behind the water tower.

Mike

This seems to be the other end of Tonbridge shed seen in post #3350 of 31786. Same bracket signal, loco shed style, and lattice work under the water tank. There's a Q1 to the right of 31786 - perhaps that is 33037, taken in B & W on the same day (in a different position) - it doesn't seem worthy of colour, except for modellers' weathering purposes.



H Class 31533 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. This appeared very recently in the same series of shots in post #3297. Details are that it had only recently been allocated to Tunbridge Wells West in May 1961 and I suspect that this was a book allocation while the loco was in works. It had previously been at Tonbridge since April 1960. Pull-push gear was fitted to the loco in the same month which suggests it was specifically for use on the pull-push trains out of Tonbridge. It was withdrawn from Tunbridge Wells West in September 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it then went to Eastleigh Works where it was scrapped week ending 29th September 1962

I think the H class would have gone on the TWW - Oxted trains after works attention, I don't think they were much seen at Tonbridge latterly. Prior to Tonbridge shed it had been at Bricklayers Arms presumably on ECS duties from Rotherhithe Road sidings.

Martin



I have no provided information on location, date or subject but a bit of research advises that GH723 is a 1930 Bentley 6.5 litre.

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.



I have no information on this one either apart from the registration FD3575. I've done a Google search but it's not there. Whoops! I just reviewed the picture and it's clearly a Model T Ford of 1926.

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.

It is a Ford Model TT, the commercial version of the Model T with longer wheelbase, heavier chassis and worm drive rear axle. Rated to carry 1 ton. If it was still as built the 250,000 miles claimed on the sign would have been done at 15 to 20 mph.
Entirely adequate given the brakes (rear only, none on front wheels?).

And not exactly facing racy competition, or racetrack-smooth roads!



No Info on location or date again but this wonderful vehicle is a Lacre Model L road sweeper of 1920. There's a lot of lovely information at https://classiccars.brightwells.com/viewdetails.php?id=5461

Edit: Possibly Transport Through the Ages Rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford on 30th June 1963 see post #3358.



Brian

 

[Ressaldar]

Hi Brian,

yes, 33037 is definitely at Tonbridge, my Grandparents lived in a cottage adjacent to the building (a pub whose name escapes me) behind the water tower.

regards

Mike

 

[Barry37]

Heather - You've done me proud with those descriptions. How you identified the turntable ladder as "obviously" a Leyland Metz I guess I'll never know, but I suspect you'll have an audience when you come to complete the model.

Mike and Martin. Thank you both for putting the location of that picture right and furthermore documentary evidence! Thanks also, Martin, for the additional and probably better details.

Andy. Thanks to you for expanding the info about the traction engine photos. There are more to come but quite when they'll get to these pages I'm, uncertain.

Simond - so where's the picture of the "wedding car"...?

Tony. I agree with you and I may even try to get hold of a copy of that book to read but it's a rabbit hole I'm currently trying to avoid.

I originally had this down as Battle of Britain 34068 Kenley but that's figured a bit earlier and was in original condition so this can't be. In any event it's a rebuilt Battle of Britain on an up boat train at Ashford on 3rd June 1961.

View attachment 212651

Q1 33037 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. This had been a Tonbridge engine since June 1959 until a book transfer in late May 1961 to Eastleigh. (SLS). Again it may be a transfer in advance of actuality. It carries a 74D shed plate which was correct for that shed until 1958 when it became 73J so it probably didn't know where it was! I also suspect this photo may be at Tonbridge rather than Ashford so comments will be appreciated. It was withdrawn from Eastleigh in October 1963. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it was cut up at Eastleigh week ending 26th October 1963.

View attachment 212652

H Class 31533 in Ashford Works on 3rd June 1961. This appeared very recently in the same series of shots in post #3297. Details are that it had only recently been allocated to Tunbridge Wells West in May 1961 and I suspect that this was a book allocation while the loco was in works. It had previously been at Tonbridge since April 1960. Pull-push gear was fitted to the loco in the same month which suggests it was specifically for use on the pull-push trains out of Tonbridge. It was withdrawn from Tunbridge Wells West in September 1962. (SLS). The Railway Observer reports it then went to Eastleigh Works where it was scrapped week ending 29th September 1962

View attachment 212653

I have no provided information on location, date or subject but a bit of research advises that GH723 is a 1930 Bentley 6.5 litre.

View attachment 212654

I have no information on this one either apart from the registration FD3575. I've done a Google search but it's not there. Whoops! I just reviewed the picture and it's clearly a Model T Ford of 1926.

View attachment 212655

No Info on location or date again but this wonderful vehicle is a Lacre Model L road sweeper of 1920. There's a lot of lovely information at https://classiccars.brightwells.com/viewdetails.php?id=5461

View attachment 212656

Brian

Q1 33037 at Ashford Shed on 3rd June 1961. This had been a Tonbridge engine since June 1959 until a book transfer in late May 1961 to Eastleigh. (SLS). Again it may be a transfer in advance of actuality. It carries a 74D shed plate which was correct for that shed until 1958 when it became 73J so it probably didn't know where it was! I also suspect this photo may be at Tonbridge rather than Ashford so comments will be appreciated. It was withdrawn from Eastleigh in October 1963. (SLS). According to the Railway Observer it was cut up at Eastleigh week ending 26th October 1963.

This seems to be the other end of Tonbridge shed seen in post #3350 of 31786. Same bracket signal, loco shed style, and lattice work under the water tank. There's a Q1 to the right of 31786 - perhaps that is 33037, taken in B & W on the same day (in a different position) - it doesn't seem worthy of colour, except for modellers' weathering purposes.

 

[simond]

Simond - so where's the picture of the "wedding car"...?

Ah yes, sorry, diversion to Lowestoft in between times.


the only one in the album



the photographer has now dried out….

 

[Martin Shaw]

The rebuilt BoB is 34077 603 Squadron (City of Edinburgh). Of the 10 locos 3407x, only two were rebuilt and the other one, 34072 257 Squadron had gone to Exmouth Junc on 24/2/58. 34077 was a Stewarts Lane engine until transfer to Nine Elms on the 26/5/61, a date we've come across a lot recently.

The Q1 is at Tonbridge as you suspected and Mike confirms, the Tonbridge B Up Main Inner Home signals give it away as well. The photo of the L1 was taken on the 23/6/61 so not long after Tim's picture so it could well be the same Q1, there weren't many on the SE Division by that date.

I think the H class would have gone on the TWW - Oxted trains after works attention, I don't think they were much seen at Tonbridge latterly. Prior to Tonbridge shed it had been at Bricklayers Arms presumably on ECS duties from Rotherhithe Road sidings.

Martin

 

[Overseer]

I have no information on this one either apart from the registration FD3575. I've done a Google search but it's not there. Whoops! I just reviewed the picture and it's clearly a Model T Ford of 1926.

It is a Ford Model TT, the commercial version of the Model T with longer wheelbase, heavier chassis and worm drive rear axle. Rated to carry 1 ton. If it was still as built the 250,000 miles claimed on the sign would have been done at 15 to 20 mph.

 

[simond]

at 15 to 20 mph.

Entirely adequate given the brakes (rear only, none on front wheels?).

And not exactly facing racy competition, or racetrack-smooth roads!

 

[AndyB]

Post #3,342, fish and chip van behind the fire engine is most likely 1930 Dennis GL Type reg GK9430 - more recent photo here - Now retired as an active fish & chip van it remains in the Saunders Collection (Bedford area). Was new to the Joe Lyons group as a mobile refreshment & gift shop for their 'Black & Green' tea brand.

The Ford Model TT is carrying an advert for a 'Transport through the Ages' rally at Gilwell Park, Chingford. I can't read the date (is it readable on the original scan?), but found this on ebay:

Sunday 30th June sets it in 1963.
No suggestion that this was an annual event.
The EDVVS started in 1961, is still going, and have their own museum (now run by a separate trust) - Home | Whitewebbs Museum of Transport - looks like a great place for the resident petrol heads on here!
The only landmark I can see is a white house in the background of a couple of pictures. This could be the southerly lodge at Gilwell but I can't find a picture of its northern face to be any more sure. Comparison to a photo of a Gilwell site map in 1974 shows that there were far fewer trees between the lodge and the main field then.

 

[AndyB]

Post #3342 - the pick-up is an Overland 25cwt, reg NT8738, first registered July 1926 - other photo here
From wikipedia:
Willys Overland Crossley was a company jointly owned by Crossley Motors and Willys-Overland. They had factories in Stockport, England; Berlin, Germany; and Antwerp, Belgium. The company was formed in 1919 and continued until 1934.[1] They manufactured cars, buses and trucks.

In 1919, Crossley Motors and John North Willys on behalf of Willys-Overland agreed to set up a British operation to import, manufacture and sell a high volume of cars based on the Overland 4 model. Crossley Motors provided the Heaton Chapel, Stockport aircraft factory they had recently bought from the government after the end of World War I. This factory was large enough to include a covered test track. Production started in 1920 with the assembly of kits bought in from the Willys-Overland Canadian plant. WOC's first design contribution was to offer British bodies to fit the Model 4's chassis. The Willys-Knight sleeve-valve-engined car was also offered.

 

[AndyB]

Behind the hearse (post #3343) is a 1937 Austin 16-6 reg EKE 333 - photo here