7mm US model dabblings

[Big Train James]

Nice finds. Over here, those MTH 50' high cube boxcars are hard to come by - at reasonable prices anyway. A lot of people pursue the Railbox version, but I'll pass as it's not a prototypical paint scheme. For the bulkhead flats, I prefer the look of the Atlas version with the tapered bulkheads, but I think they cost quite a bit more than the Weavers.

Regarding the use of the trucks from the 40' boxcar, make sure the trucks are roller bearing as opposed to plain bearing. I would think not, based on the era the 40' cars were typical of.

Here's a link to a web page about 2-railing the MTH cars. It talks about using Lionel sideframes and Northwest Short Line wheelsets. The Lionel trucks feature rotating bearing caps, and it's been suggested that they actually have the best proportions of any of the 100 ton roller bearing frames. Of course these items are available in the U.S., so subject to the post and customs issues we discussed with the mp15dc shell. Not sure about parts sourcing in the U.K. for these manufacturers. Of course, I've a drawer full of the Lionel trucks that I could send over but again I'm not sure if it's worthwhile.

MTH 50' high cube boxcar 2-rail conversion

The website in general is an interesting read. The guy went silent several years ago and hasn't updated the blog in all that time. It's a shame as he had some nice layout ideas and also had a lot of prototype insight based on his employment as a brakeman. I know he's still around as he occasionally sells things on one of the forums I frequent.

Regards,
Jim

 

[mickoo]

Jim,

Cheers, spare parts for US stock is basically down to what ever comes up on Ebay or buying direct from the US and running the risk of the men in grey missing it as it passes over their desk

I hadn't thought about the type of trucks LOL and terrible as it is to say, (given my anal attention to detail in S7) not a point that would bother me one jot but I get your point though
I am firmly in the double standards camp when it comes to stock verses locomotives, don't know why, I just seem to take less care about details with stock, even UK stock, or more correctly, I do at the moment.

I do recall going through something like this the last time I got all my US stock out and dimly recall the trucks being all wrong and sourcing others to be a right pain. I suppose at a glance, I admit a very quick one, it'll only be the axle boxes covers which will give it away? It might pay me to 3D print some covers up or even etch them and stick them over the plain axle box covers, not totally authentic but a quick fix for what are essentially trains to play with.

The high cubes were not cheap by US standards, converted to $$ you guys would probably end up calling 911 after a heart attack but for the UK they are probably a reasonable buy, when you take into account free shipping and no taxes or import duties. They were at the upper end of my budget for a railcar and I only dropped for them because they were high cubes, CSX and boxed, they're not new but they haven't got much mileage on them at all. I didn't know RBOX did high cubes, I do have a 2nd hand RBOX here, maker unknown but it's a standard 50' box car as far as I can tell....and with roller bearing trucks

They still have two CN high cubes for sale, if they're that rare maybe I should grab them quick, mind I've no interest in CN other than their Dash 9 with teardrop windscreens which sometimes make it down south to Florida occasionally on the Autorack trains or their wide cab GP40's.

The MTH couplers are enormous and fitted to the trucks unfortunately, one box car even has a working EOTD, fed from a great big roller between the wheels , that'll have to go but I'll have to find another way of picking up the supply if I want to keep that feature. Frame mounted Kadee's will be required all round as well, not sure which ones yet though, I've found with those ones I do have that there is an awful lot of slack between the coupler faces, not sure if I can engineer that out with some better tolerances and the shank springs are way too soft, especially if you start to weight your stock a bit.

Having said that, I do dimly recall someone making better couplers, cast brass or something, not cheap if imported to the UK, maybe I need to get them to post to my villa when I'm on vacation and I can bring them back as hand luggage

Thanks for the link, will head over and see how it's done....properly

All the best

Mick

 

[AJC]

I am firmly in the double standards camp when it comes to stock verses locomotives, don't know why, I just seem to take less care about details with stock, even UK stock, or more correctly, I do at the moment.

You didn't need to say, you do model in O scale(s) after all... *

Actually, that's unfair to you and to the O gauge modellers on this forum and distracts from the fact that I'm enjoying the experiments in colour matching and the work you're putting in to making those elements 'right' since such things bother me too. That, and the imposing presence - evident even in the pictures - of these models is exceptionally appealing. If only I had the space for a tiny 4mm layout...

Adam

* Edit - for Jim's benefit, here in the UK, O scale is often regarded as the loco' builder's scale with not a lot of interest in anything else. This is less true than it once was.

 

[S-Club-7]

Having said that, I do dimly recall someone making better couplers, cast brass or something, not cheap if imported to the UK, maybe I need to get them to post to my villa when I'm on vacation and I can bring them back as hand luggage

Hi Mick,

Sergent Engineering was the company that I was thinking of when we last spoke; but a Google search for "sergent couplers" only finds HO and S scale versions. Other names which come up are Protocraft and San Quan Car Co who do O scale couplers; even P48 wheels if you want to go down that slippery slope...

 

[Steph Dale]

I was waiting for a P:48 mention...
I know of at least one member of this forum who's investigating that particular path at the moment. I understand that it's the trackwork that's causing the biggest headaches currently.
I'll pass on the details of the truck conversion to him; thanks for posting the link, Jim, it looks useful to me.

Cheers,

Steph

 

[Big Train James]

Here is a second reference on converting the MTH cars. This one discusses the coupler aspect as well. It uses the newest Atlas trucks instead of the Lionel donors.

OGR forum MTH conversion post

Now then, for all the rest of your points, in order.

Unfortunately, plain journal bearing trucks have a lot of differences with their more modern roller bearing counterparts. As technologies progressed and load capacities increased, the trucks changed quite a bit. It's true that the bearing box and its cover are pretty obvious. However, the overall frame shape and the spring grouping are both usually quite different. Have a look at the following guide from Model Railroader. It gives a nice history of trucks and identifies the identifying characteristics of each type.

Model Railroader freight car truck guide

Railbox cars come in four varieties, each with their own reporting mark. RBOX is the traditional 50' sliding door car at normal height, produced by any number of manufacutures. ABOX is a less common 50' car with a combination plug/sliding door. TBOX are the now ubiquitous 60' high cube cars, produced by Gunderson and National Steel Car. And lastly, FBOX is the modern 50' high cube plug door car by NSC. This car is quite distinct as it has both vertical and horizontal ribs. The NSC cars also have tapered jambs flanking each side of the door.

ABOX


RBOX


FBOX - National Steel Car - note the horizontal ribs and also the tapered door jambs


TBOX - Gunderson - note the wide third vertical ribs - NSC cars have all one width ribs and the tapered door jambs (number series in the 665k+/-)


The upshot of this is that the MTH 50' car in FBOX paint is a fantasy job. The MTH cars are based on the Gunderson prototype, distinguised primarily by the wide vertical rib just in from the ends of the car. If you have an RBOX car, it is most likely an older Weaver or a newer Atlas version.

Now as to whether you should grab those CN cars that are available? I would suggest looking at your photos to see what types and road names of cars show up in your area. Unless you are looking to run a consist with only CSX equipment in it (unrealistic, but your loyalty and dedication would be admirable) then the CN cars might make sense. They make as much sense as the CSX cars in that an industry that would utilize this type of car doesn't really care what road it comes from.

Moving along, yes the MTH couplers (and any 3-rail coupler for that matter) are ridiculous. Part of the toy train gimmickry that appeals to a segment of the market. If you think these are bad, look up photos of a Sunset E7 with a 3-rail "electrocoupler" sticking out of the front pilot. A beautiful model in all other aspects. The conversion thread mentioned above addresses body mounting Kadee couplers.

I'm guessing that the brass couplers you are thinking of are offered by Protocraft? Protocraft's whole thing is supporting P48 standards, which primarily have to do with track gauge and wheel profile. P48 is often also closely associated with finescale modeling, although there is no explicit relationship between the two. The couplers they offer are very nice. However, they represent a less modern iteration of coupler design. So not quite accurate for what is seen on the prototype roads currently. In fact, the only real problem with Protocraft is that it is geared more toward the steam/transition era than anything modern. They did for a time offer modern 100 ton rollerbearing trucks at something like $65 a pair. These had full brake rigging details. Long gone and apparently too expensive to bother producing another run. So they aren't just expensive in the UK!

End of lesson. You've already suggested that perhaps these details aren't that critical to you, at least with regard to rolling stock. So take all this with a grain of salt and apply what you find useful.

Jim

 

[mickoo]

You didn't need to say, you do model in O scale(s) after all... *

Actually, that's unfair to you and to the O gauge modellers on this forum and distracts from the fact that I'm enjoying the experiments in colour matching and the work you're putting in to making those elements 'right' since such things bother me too. That, and the imposing presence - evident even in the pictures - of these models is exceptionally appealing. If only I had the space for a tiny 4mm layout...

Adam

* Edit - for Jim's benefit, here in the UK, O scale is often regarded as the loco' builder's scale with not a lot of interest in anything else. This is less true than it once was.

Jim,

Yes your right, I meant in no way to ridicule or beat down what others do, in any scale, but the truth is, from my perspective, I take a very different view to rolling stock than I do the locomotive or even the scenery.

Jim quite rightly pointed out that transposing the spare (semi) 40' box car trucks from what are essentially 1940's based vehicles to more modern stock would not be prototypically correct, from my point of view, unless Jim had reminded me I would of been quite happy to have 1940's trucks under 1990's stock, it would not have bothered my one jot and even now I have been reminded, still would not bother me if I went down that road.

I suspect in time once everything else had been made or accomplished to a better standard I would eventually revisit them and do them properly, but as an out of the gate in an effort to save some time and at least accomplish something, it currently doesn't phase me. It's not just US stock, if I were to model UK stock then lets say the position of vents on Mk1 stock would not phase me at all, it's only a Mk1 after all, and that does not deride in anyway those that go to great lengths to get their Mk1s just so, it just means I do not place that much emphasis on that aspect.

On the flip side though, getting the wrong battery cover doors on the GP38-2 cab, say a four slot with 8 bolts as opposed to 4 bolts with two slots is a definite no no.

On reflection it gets even more complex, whilst I view stock as some sort of chore on the whole, the wheels and couplers must be just so

Clearly I like making locomotives, stock is just a reason to make more locomotives I'm sure in time it will change and the stock will get a make over or upgrade.

Hope that explains it a bit better, something that even I find hard to understand myself on occasion.

 

[Big Train James]

I guess I don't need to explain to you guys what P48 is all about....

 

[Big Train James]

Jim quite rightly pointed out that transposing the spare (semi) 40' box car trucks from what are essentially 1940's based vehicles to more modern stock would not be prototypically correct, from my point of view, unless Jim had reminded me I would of been quite happy to have 1940's trucks under 1990's stock, it would not have bothered my one jot and even now I have been reminded, still would not bother me if I went down that road.

Phew....I was worried I had ruined the whole thing for you...

 

[Jordan or Plymouth Mad]

There 'was' four of these high cubes but some goit whipped one from under my nose over night....Jordan?

Not Guilty, M'Lud.
I have a CSX one, weathered and already converted to 2-rail. I think MTH only made them in 3-rail *tries not to vomit*
I wanted a TTX one but have just read Jim's posts.... and they are silly money in the USA, never mind getting them over here.
Hope you enjoyed the unadulterated thrill of opening those boxes.

 

[mickoo]

Jim,

Excellent case of information overload LOL

I see your point and very succinctly put I might add and I do take your point on the shape as well as the journal differences. Given how bad the MTH ones are, 1940's plain bearings whilst still wrong would be a vast leap in fidelity and detail

I'd like to eventually scratch build some box cars, especially the more modern ones whose ribs tend to be more square, especially the end walls, though roofs still seem to have that odd X bracing, I am toying with whipping the top off the RBOX and casting my own roofs from it to sit on scratch built bodies, but that's all a long ways off but your info is a good source of information none the less.

I have no idea what make my RBOX is, it's coded as ATSF 51224, the ATSF being a sticker so I don't know if it's been added as factory to represent a real car or added by the previous owner, I haven't yet had time to research all these aspects, typical kid in a candy store approach to freight cars at the moment though I do like the look of that FBOX you have shown, that sort of car body construction would work very well in etched brass, expensive mind but very easy to mock up the basic shell in a short time.

Thanks again for the links, will browse them when I catch breath, so much to do, so little time with current projects that I need to progress before I can full commit to serious US modelling, let alone the eventual return of UK ECML steam on it's cyclic orbit.

Having said that, I am having a big clear out of fringe interests, so that I can focus on a core two or three key subjects.

Regarding RR companies, in the US it appears there is a big common user pool arrangement, I've no set area or exact replica I wish to model and only picked CSX as it's where I've been, I've been a huge fan of UP for decades and over looked many other Railroads, but having been to Florida it has that tangible emotional experience link that often grows into a passion. I had a quick scan through my CSX photos at Wildwood and they're from pretty much everywhere on the US continent, so CN could be plausible and a pure CSX stock list would be as you say narrow visioned

 

[Big Train James]

I started a scratchbuild of the 60' Gunderson car that has long since stalled out. I really should get on with it. If anybody is interested I have pdf information for both the 50' and 60' high cubes, as well as some cad work done for the 60' version. I also have quite a few detail photos, some of my own and some from the net.

 

[mickoo]

Phew....I was worried I had ruined the whole thing for you...

No problems, don't sweat it

 

[AJC]

Clearly I like making locomotives, stock is just a reason to make more locomotives I'm sure in time it will change and the stock will get a make over or upgrade.

Hope that explains it a bit better, something that even I find hard to understand myself on occasion.

No need to explain to me Mick, we all have our preferences in model making, the hobby is an indulgence rather than a living for most of us, it's just I tend to view the picture from the other end of the telescope: the wagons were really the point of the whole operation, after all and that's what interests me. This would be a dull place if everyone agreed with me and thank goodness they don't.

Adam

 

[Big Train James]

Not all of the modern cars employ the "X" pattern roof. For example here is a later car with a somewhat common rib pattern.



The "X" style is manufactured by Stanray and supplied to car builders. They are somewhat standardized. I have dimensioned drawings of the Stanray roof panels which I could send you if you are interested down the road.

Btw, perhaps when you next come to Florida you should shoot me a note. If you were still interested in the mp15dc shell or the Lionel trucks for conversion, it might work out for me to send them to your U.S. address.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[mickoo]

Not Guilty, M'Lud.
I have a CSX one, weathered and already converted to 2-rail. I think MTH only made them in 3-rail *tries not to vomit*
I wanted a TTX one but have just read Jim's posts.... and they are silly money in the USA, never mind getting them over here.
Hope you enjoyed the unadulterated thrill of opening those boxes.

Well there can't be many 3 Railers in the UK, surely not

I did enjoy opening the boxes, I might get the wife to pack them all up later so I can open them all again tomorrow

That's the good thing with storing stuff in the loft, it's just like Xmas all over when you re-discover them all again, I genuinely have no clue what US stock I actually have in the loft, I buy it and it goes up there after a few days, I find keeping it all up there stops temptation when I should be doing something else. I know I do have four or five 40 footers and a couple of 50' kits, plus a box full of spares which might make up two or three more box cars, no idea of length, I also think I've got five or even six 4 bay covered hoppers, the big curved sided ones.

I do know I don't have any tanks, hoppers, gondolas or centre beams though

I do have an Atlas GP chassis with trucks up there as well, could be a 35 or a 40, non powered and three rail, I use it as a basis to scale off for the Spartan cab work and eventual scratch built chassis I'll need.

Already looking forward to the weekend to see what I've got now LOL.

 

[mickoo]

I started a scratchbuild of the 60' Gunderson car that has long since stalled out. I really should get on with it. If anybody is interested I have pdf information for both the 50' and 60' high cubes, as well as some cad work done for the 60' version. I also have quite a few detail photos, some of my own and some from the net.

I'll take it all LOL (Admin, can we have a 'greedy' emoticon please?)

More importantly, start a thread here if you have any photos of progress, as you've probably gathered by now, it's a broad church here and even if the subject matter isn't everyone's cup of tea there's always new skills to learn and ideas to help others.

I did chance across a site that sells Ebooks on different wagon types with lots of detailed photos, reasonable price as well as I recall, I was looking at the 2 bay covered hoppers that seem to extensive on CSX lines. Can't remember the site off hand, will dig it out later, hopefully it hasn't closed down.

Finding good drawings is also difficult, most manufactures do offer a pdf of their stock which has a plan end and top view, but they rarely scale up well as usable sources of information.

I will go mad this year and photo everything I legally can, last year I only focused on locos with several detailed walkaround shoots of CSX locos and stock was a fill in when I was board, this time I'll take photos of just about everything rail related and industries as well as overall street scenes etc.

 

[Big Train James]

I'll take it all LOL (Admin, can we have a 'greedy' emoticon please?)

What type of cad program are you using? I use Autocad and have an R14 version and also access to 2015. I can send .dwg or .dxf file types. Should I send things directly to you or post them here?

More importantly, start a thread here if you have any photos of progress, as you've probably gathered by now, it's a broad church here and even if the subject matter isn't everyone's cup of tea there's always new skills to learn and ideas to help others.

Indeed. I really need to lean on all of you to learn about etching. It is clearly very commonplace in UK modeling. I have any number of detail parts and so on that I think would work well in photo etch. I need to create some cad work and send it to PPD. Add it to the list of things to do. And I am working on something to post. I just get distracted easily.

I did chance across a site that sells Ebooks on different wagon types with lots of detailed photos, reasonable price as well as I recall, I was looking at the 2 bay covered hoppers that seem to extensive on CSX lines. Can't remember the site off hand, will dig it out later, hopefully it hasn't closed down.

Perchance, Eric's Railroad Car History site? I've purchased several of his books and they are a great resource. Regrettably they typically do not include drawing information.

Finding good drawings is also difficult, most manufactures do offer a pdf of their stock which has a plan end and top view, but they rarely scale up well as usable sources of information.

I have a handful of modern car pdf's from the Greenbrier (nee Gunderson) Railcar site. They include what are clearly technical line drawings at the bottom of each page. Interestingly, these line drawings can be saved as .dwg files in Adobe Illustrator since it's vector graphic based. The resulting drawing file yields a very usable rendition of the cars. Side and end views only, no top, bottom, or section views. But a great starting point. I've taken these drawings and redrawn them adjusting details to equal the closest available styrene strips and so on.

Let me know about the files and I'll send them over or post them.

Jim

 

[mickoo]

Jim,

MTH 50' high cube boxcar 2-rail conversion

Very informative, I think I had this guys site book marked for further research once before, mainly the shunting layout aspect.

I though this trick with the Kadees worth the effort in reading a bit more

http://oscalewcor.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/upgrading-trucks-on-weaver-boxcars.html

I've also just twigged what you mean by rotating bearing caps, I have so got to have that feature , I was talking at the last club meeting about adding that feature to some modern locomotives I had planned(if I live to 245), I've not seen that feature modelled on locomotives as yet.

The MP15DC body I'm happy to keep and work with, the extra details will 'finger print it' for me and give it something a more special meaning so to speak, but if you ever need a buyer for the trucks

I'm not sure I want to go down the P48 route at the moment, I have all that and more in S7 to satisfy that aspect if I'm honest and I know it makes no odds to make track to 1:48 standard as it does to P48, just not that committed to the P48 scene just yet, just more finer 1:48 will do me. i haven't actually looked at the MP15Dc wheels to see what might be required to scale them a bit better. It has had some mileage and the Nickle Silver plating has come off the tread to reveal the brass core underneath, so skimming them down won't cause any further damage, they will of course need blackening to get rid of the horrible brass colour, I'd of preferred them with shiny wheel rims but the damage is already done.

 

[mickoo]

What type of cad program are you using? I use Autocad and have an R14 version and also access to 2015. I can send .dwg or .dxf file types. Should I send things directly to you or post them here?

Indeed. I really need to lean on all of you to learn about etching. It is clearly very commonplace in UK modeling. I have any number of detail parts and so on that I think would work well in photo etch. I need to create some cad work and send it to PPD. Add it to the list of things to do. And I am working on something to post. I just get distracted easily.

Perchance, Eric's Railroad Car History site? I've purchased several of his books and they are a great resource. Regrettably they typically do not include drawing information.

I have a handful of modern car pdf's from the Greenbrier (nee Gunderson) Railcar site. They include what are clearly technical line drawings at the bottom of each page. Interestingly, these line drawings can be saved as .dwg files in Adobe Illustrator since it's vector graphic based. The resulting drawing file yields a very usable rendition of the cars. Side and end views only, no top, bottom, or section views. But a great starting point. I've taken these drawings and redrawn them adjusting details to equal the closest available styrene strips and so on.

Let me know about the files and I'll send them over or post them.

Jim

Jim,

No not that site, this one
http://www.fcix.info/

He did a whole load of free pdfs on all aspects of railroad cars and many were previews of his detailed Ebooks so to speak.

I've attached the preview for disc 5 Greenbrier box cars, it doesn't break any copyright as far as I can make out, it was a massive source of info on US cars, I seriously regret not getting the discs now it might have moved so I'll dig around the web some more. I did collect all 34 free pdfs he offered and have them saved safely for the future.

Addendum, found this site which shows one source where they can be bought when they eventually come back on line.
http://www.pacific-western-rail.com/archive/dyn.April_17_2007_Freight_Cars_Illustrated_E_Books.php

And Yumpu has a collection of the free samples but not all of them.
https://www.yumpu.com/user/fcix.info#

Ost also has one on hoppers
http://www.ostpubs.com/Store/produc...ducts_id=38&osCsid=gvdl72jdrb7q7vfsgp6bku2cg0

I didn't know you could open the pdf's I don't have adobe illustraitor but use AutoCAD 2103 which leads us onto etching, it's not hard once you get into the flow, I'm supposed to be doing that now on the W1 frames not this stuff from across the pond LOL and yes PPD are pretty good, price wise too. They do have a minimum size so if your think about it, let me know as I'm sure I'll need some car specific stuff when I get around to it so you might have to run off a batch of four lets say 3x3" etches to make it economical. If you need any help, just shout, there's plenty of people here with more than enough experience to help you along.

Regarding the info, there's a site limit on file size so might be best to shoot an email, I'll PM mine for you, but your also welcome to share here if you so wish.

 

[Big Train James]

Jim,

No not that site, this one
http://www.fcix.info/

It's the same site, kind of. Go to the link for Railroad Car History Home. The whole thing is a collaboration between three guys. They all offer certain perspectives or certain types of information. The home page has links to the other two sites. As an aside, Dave Casdorph did or still does work for Atlas. He also contributes a lot of material to the Yahoo Groups Modern Freightcar group.

I currently have cd-roms from Eric's site for Bethlemhem Steel/Johnstown America production from 1978 through 2011, Gunderson/FMC production through 2009, a history of Centerflow hopper cars, and a Centerbeam flatcar book. If you buy enough at one time, you get a nice discount.

The OST book drives me nuts because of all the hoppers they could have chosen to feature, they didn't pick any of the most common versions. How do they screw that up?

I'll look for your PM.

Jim