mickoo
Western Thunderer
No idea where, but nice picture
Prototype Can anyone identify Where & When?
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for trying, Mick. First time you've ever not identified one of my more Northerly photos, I think.
I have a little extra info drawn from the photo when I was Photoshopping it at pixel level. The shed plate is definitely 55B which dates it post 1959.
I'll keep fingers crossed that someone else may have an idea.
B
I have a little extra info drawn from the photo when I was Photoshopping it at pixel level. The shed plate is definitely 55B which dates it post 1959.
I'll keep fingers crossed that someone else may have an idea.
B
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Brian, I've only had a quick look, my first reaction was Bristol Barrow road but on inspection the shed in the back ground is nothing like that area. If it's 55B then it's going to be local to Leeds, say a 50 mile radius, which covers a lot of towns but given the complexity of the trackwork in and around the shot then I'd start looking at the Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield area. That large building in the back ground might be a pointer too, a school perhaps? It's a substantial structure and I'd bet it's still standing today. Under the bridge is a large shed of some sort, a goods shed or even wagon repair depot, there looks to be a brand new 16 tonner under there.Thanks for trying, Mick. First time you've ever not identified one of my more Northerly photos, I think.
I have a little extra info drawn from the photo when I was Photoshopping it at pixel level. The shed plate is definitely 55B which dates it post 1959.
I'll keep fingers crossed that someone else may have an idea.
B
The concrete walling isn't that common and the ground posts with cabling suggest a modern signalling system of some sort, my gut feeling is it's Leeds somewhere, I'll dig some more when I get time.
Last edited:
mickoo
Western Thunderer
OK, I have it, I'm 98% certain it is Engine shed junction Holbeck, this makes sense as Holbeck was a popular spot for photographers.
An aerial shot from today courtesy of Bing.
The photographer is stood where the double circles are at centre and looking toward the bridge also circled, behind that is a fan of tracks for the goods shed/ facility, this was laid to tracks by 1963 and I'm still looking for an earlier picture that showed the structure that existed here. To the left of the photographer is a sub station which accounts for the electrical cable at ground level.
A close view of the bridge reveals the water pipe is still there but slightly re-routed
Note the new brick work behind the tank and up to the bridge abutment, if you take that away your left with an identical bridge abutment arrangement as in your photo as well as the steep drop off the bridge for road traffic. Note also the concrete fence by the car park, if you zoom in and change the angle you can see it still exists. The cars sit on the remains of the buildings in your background but the church is further along and hidden by your train so no idea what the building in the back ground of yours is, again this area was cleared in the early 60s and I'm still trying to find and older image of this area. Both Tracey and Cross photographed around this area and I haven't gone through their books yet.
A shot from the web taken from the bridge.
4F 43987. by John Whiteley, on Flickr
Note the concrete wall and ground level cables.
Another photo but facing the other way from the coaling tower
4F 44238 passing Holbeck. by John Whiteley, on Flickr
There will be a photo somewhere from the coaling tower facing the same way as the photographer, it's just a case of finding it.
This shot is interesting as it's looking directly at where the photographer would of stood
Leeds: Holbeck Shed. 1951. by jsb303, on Flickr
Note the concrete wall looks brand new in this shot and the ground cable installation, the shot is dated as 1951 so that throws some doubt on the buildings in the back ground of your shot unless they are further away than I've mentally placed them.
I'd like just one shot that shows the buildings in the background of your shot, either the larger one and/or it's purpose, or one of the goods shed behind the bridge to be 100% sure, but as for now, I'd go with Leeds Holbeck engine shed Jct.
An aerial shot from today courtesy of Bing.
The photographer is stood where the double circles are at centre and looking toward the bridge also circled, behind that is a fan of tracks for the goods shed/ facility, this was laid to tracks by 1963 and I'm still looking for an earlier picture that showed the structure that existed here. To the left of the photographer is a sub station which accounts for the electrical cable at ground level.
A close view of the bridge reveals the water pipe is still there but slightly re-routed
Note the new brick work behind the tank and up to the bridge abutment, if you take that away your left with an identical bridge abutment arrangement as in your photo as well as the steep drop off the bridge for road traffic. Note also the concrete fence by the car park, if you zoom in and change the angle you can see it still exists. The cars sit on the remains of the buildings in your background but the church is further along and hidden by your train so no idea what the building in the back ground of yours is, again this area was cleared in the early 60s and I'm still trying to find and older image of this area. Both Tracey and Cross photographed around this area and I haven't gone through their books yet.
A shot from the web taken from the bridge.
4F 43987. by John Whiteley, on FlickrNote the concrete wall and ground level cables.
Another photo but facing the other way from the coaling tower
4F 44238 passing Holbeck. by John Whiteley, on FlickrThere will be a photo somewhere from the coaling tower facing the same way as the photographer, it's just a case of finding it.
This shot is interesting as it's looking directly at where the photographer would of stood
Leeds: Holbeck Shed. 1951. by jsb303, on FlickrNote the concrete wall looks brand new in this shot and the ground cable installation, the shot is dated as 1951 so that throws some doubt on the buildings in the back ground of your shot unless they are further away than I've mentally placed them.
I'd like just one shot that shows the buildings in the background of your shot, either the larger one and/or it's purpose, or one of the goods shed behind the bridge to be 100% sure, but as for now, I'd go with Leeds Holbeck engine shed Jct.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks Mick.
There's no timetable for this, it's just that I like as much info as possible to accompany my photos. It's a great shame that very few photographers in the '50s and '60s considered it worth detailing their shots. After all, they knew where and when so who else could possibly be interested? Unfortunately, when they shuffle off this mortal coil all detail is lost.
I agree that the Leeds area seems a most likely location, but I've had a look at some maps and don't see anything which appears to match. Thanks for your continuing interest in these pictures - with your present range of interests you need to keep this one firmly in check!
Best regards.
Brian
There's no timetable for this, it's just that I like as much info as possible to accompany my photos. It's a great shame that very few photographers in the '50s and '60s considered it worth detailing their shots. After all, they knew where and when so who else could possibly be interested? Unfortunately, when they shuffle off this mortal coil all detail is lost.
I agree that the Leeds area seems a most likely location, but I've had a look at some maps and don't see anything which appears to match. Thanks for your continuing interest in these pictures - with your present range of interests you need to keep this one firmly in check!
Best regards.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Sorry Mick - mine crossed with yours.
I reckon you are absolutely correct. In fact, if you look at the local "furniture" in the early shots you've included there are matches for the various posts and telegraph poles, though they've gone in the most recent picture.
All in all another success, I reckon. Thanks for your efforts.
Best regards.
Brian
I reckon you are absolutely correct. In fact, if you look at the local "furniture" in the early shots you've included there are matches for the various posts and telegraph poles, though they've gone in the most recent picture.
All in all another success, I reckon. Thanks for your efforts.
Best regards.
Brian
mickoo
Western Thunderer
BINGO!
005Q.A.B1.passes.holbeck.shed.in the early 1060s by Steve Parker, on Flickr
Note dome on building in the background which matches your building.
005Q.A.B1.passes.holbeck.shed.in the early 1060s by Steve Parker, on FlickrNote dome on building in the background which matches your building.
Heather Kay
Western Thunderer
The building in the background of Brian's photo looks like some kind of Victorian school building, or similar. That would account for the proximity to the church, and the brick wall boundary. It's interesting that the whole complex appears to have been completely razed to the ground by the mid-1960s, and replaced by what appears to be multi-storey car park!
mickoo
Western Thunderer
No problems, I'm disappointed I didn't get this right off the bat as Holbeck is one of my Favourite sheds as a possible modelling subject, probably the top if i'm honest as it mixes LMR and BRE with diesels and steam and all the classes I like including the odd Deltic here and there and of course A3's and A1's. Rule #1 applies for the A4 of course, diverted from Copley Hill due to points failure
Last edited:
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Great bit of research again, Mick, and thanks for your thoughts, Heather. I think it's this which makes it so difficult for me to place a "vintage" shot in today's environment. Makes me feel old, talking about "vintage" shots when I was taking photos at the same time
.
Brian
. Brian
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
BINGO!
005Q.A.B1.passes.holbeck.shed.in the early 1060s by Steve Parker, on Flickr
Note dome on building in the background which matches your building.
Err don't you mean Bongo....
.....got coat.Would make an interesting layout if the section between the two bridges were modelled.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
The Roundhouse and Half Roundhouse Warehouses and the surrounding area, Leeds, 1946 | Britain from Above
This site is interesting, can be a bit limited but useful.
This site is interesting, can be a bit limited but useful.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Here's another for which I have no information. I believe this is quite a bit further north than anything previously. What is obvious is that this is Black 5 45164. The shed code looks as though it might be 62G - which it wasn't as there was only ever 62A, B and C! - but 45164 was allocated to 62B Dundee Tay Bridge, which seems the most likely alternative reading, from 19 Feb 1955 until 7 May 1960. The loco was always allocated to Scottish sheds, in turn Perth South, Polmadie, Perth South again, Dundee Tay Bridge, Corkerhill and Ayr.
Any help in identifying the location will, once again, be much appreciated.
Brian
Any help in identifying the location will, once again, be much appreciated.
Brian
Bob Reid
Western Thunderer
It's Haymarket Brian - having just left the station it's just passing the MPD (on the left as viewed) and is heading West on the main line to the North though from the signal that's off it's about to cross over the Edinburgh-Glasgow main lines The bridge at the rear of the train carries the old Granton Branch. See this rather more recent view - taken in the opposite direction.
RAILSCOT | Haymarket Central Junction | View west at Haymarket Central Junction in the spring of 1971, as seen from the bridge carrying the closed CR Granton branch over the NB main line. The 'Sub' curves off sharply to the left not far beyond the signal box. Locomotives of classes 25, 27 and 40 can be seen on Haymarket shed.
RAILSCOT | Haymarket Central Junction | View west at Haymarket Central Junction in the spring of 1971, as seen from the bridge carrying the closed CR Granton branch over the NB main line. The 'Sub' curves off sharply to the left not far beyond the signal box. Locomotives of classes 25, 27 and 40 can be seen on Haymarket shed.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
That kinda makes sense, I was struggling with the signal layout and I knew I'd seen the bridge in the back ground before, my gut feeling was Polmadie but it's not there, nor Perth, Aberdeen or Cowlairs, I'd just ruled out St Margarets and was heading north but well and truly beaten
Mind I'm not sure about that signal that's off, surely that's the front face we can see, posts are usually to the right of the signal arm and the spectacle plates are this side of the post, so that one that's off is for a train coming from behind? Plus, wouldn't they be white with a black bar if viewed from behind?
I think the three post signal to the rear of the train is the controlling one of this train, the peg already having been dropped.
Mind I'm not sure about that signal that's off, surely that's the front face we can see, posts are usually to the right of the signal arm and the spectacle plates are this side of the post, so that one that's off is for a train coming from behind? Plus, wouldn't they be white with a black bar if viewed from behind?
I think the three post signal to the rear of the train is the controlling one of this train, the peg already having been dropped.
Last edited:
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Well the only thing I know about signals is that one side is mostly red or yellow and the other side is mostly white, some have stripes and others ziggy zaggy things, but other than that they're just line side furniture
By some sort of logic the signal that is off (and the highest so the priority line....I think?) is for an Up train from Glasgow to Edinburgh which will pass from behind on the track behind the engine and straight through to the station, that means that the middle post is logically controlling the same line but is the Up cross over to switch to the Up line from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, which is directly to the photographers right. I suspect that behind the photographer is another signal to protect the Up Aberdeen / Edinburgh line for that crossing.
Or the middle post is for controlling the Up Aberdeen / Edinburgh line and the divergent signal for the cross over is behind the train.
I have no idea what the small shunt signal is for.
Told you I was struggling with the signaling layout
Either way, your bang on with the location
By some sort of logic the signal that is off (and the highest so the priority line....I think?) is for an Up train from Glasgow to Edinburgh which will pass from behind on the track behind the engine and straight through to the station, that means that the middle post is logically controlling the same line but is the Up cross over to switch to the Up line from Aberdeen to Edinburgh, which is directly to the photographers right. I suspect that behind the photographer is another signal to protect the Up Aberdeen / Edinburgh line for that crossing.
Or the middle post is for controlling the Up Aberdeen / Edinburgh line and the divergent signal for the cross over is behind the train.
I have no idea what the small shunt signal is for.
Told you I was struggling with the signaling layout
Either way, your bang on with the location
JimG
Western Thunderer
Mick,
There are another pair of running lines to the right of the picture and the signal gantry controls one of them with arms for the junction. The picture pointed to by Bob refers to this line as the "Sub". There's a map from the NLS showing the area with the line in question curving in from the south west to run parallel, then form a juncrtion just short of the signal box.
Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland
The picture had me digging around the Glasgow area with the Paisley Joint line being the obvious four track candidate and one of the sheds being Corkerhill, but I couldn't get anything to fit.
Jim.
There are another pair of running lines to the right of the picture and the signal gantry controls one of them with arms for the junction. The picture pointed to by Bob refers to this line as the "Sub". There's a map from the NLS showing the area with the line in question curving in from the south west to run parallel, then form a juncrtion just short of the signal box.
Side by side georeferenced maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland
The picture had me digging around the Glasgow area with the Paisley Joint line being the obvious four track candidate and one of the sheds being Corkerhill, but I couldn't get anything to fit.
Jim.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
That has to be right on the button, chaps. Again very many thanks.
This is, for me, particularly interesting as I have some other photos from the same source which appear to be locos in multiple probably either going to or coming from Haymarket Shed. When I get to them I'll post them and see if you agree. However, just to create confusion there are also some pics which I'm pretty sure are St Margarets, so whoever this photographer was he tried to cover the whole scene.
I'll be adding all the wonderful stuff above to the photo description.
Brian
This is, for me, particularly interesting as I have some other photos from the same source which appear to be locos in multiple probably either going to or coming from Haymarket Shed. When I get to them I'll post them and see if you agree. However, just to create confusion there are also some pics which I'm pretty sure are St Margarets, so whoever this photographer was he tried to cover the whole scene.
I'll be adding all the wonderful stuff above to the photo description.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Hi again chapesses and chaps.
I hesitate to ask for more of your time but I think this might be an easy one in view of all the efforts on the 4F above.
The photo has yet to be post processed so looks less than wonderful at the moment. However I suspect it's a picture again at Leeds Holbeck. The loco is "Jubilee" 45611. As far as I can find out this loco was allocated to Holbeck until November 1961 from whence it moved to Burton and then Derby.
I'll appreciate any confirmation.
Brian
I hesitate to ask for more of your time but I think this might be an easy one in view of all the efforts on the 4F above.
The photo has yet to be post processed so looks less than wonderful at the moment. However I suspect it's a picture again at Leeds Holbeck. The loco is "Jubilee" 45611. As far as I can find out this loco was allocated to Holbeck until November 1961 from whence it moved to Burton and then Derby.
I'll appreciate any confirmation.Brian