Chas's workbench

[Chas Levin]

But is the variation you found online not down to the fact that colours viewed on a screen can vary considerably c/w an actual sample?

Sorry if I wasn't clear Tony: I don't mean that the appearance of RAL 6009 online looks different to a realt life sample, I mean that if you Google "RAL 6009" and click on the Google 'Images' you're presented with quite a variety of hues. You're looking at them side by side, on the same screen, so the variation must be on the part of the originators of those colours.
I realise the colours may have been through different processes via different websites before Google picks them up, but even so... If you have a minute to try it by googling, see what you think.

 

[Osgood]

Oh, I'm with you all the way and agree - since we know that the originating colour prior to being copied / formatted for the screen on all those sites must be identical, it illustrates the extent to which variation can occur.
Not safe to choose a colour from a screen sample, nor from some printed samples for that matter.

Which is why I like to use just one site only for direct comparisons / finding something similar but more like I'm after, as (at least I would hope) every colour they put up ought to be similarly different to the actual shade.
That site has so many ranges all in one place.
And sometimes running a few 'close match' sequences from a colour you are familiar with can get you to just what you were after without knowing quite what you were looking for

 

[Chas Levin]

Ok, I understand now - I took a look at the site and realised how it works. So I guess what I'm seeing just using Google is as you say, the effect of the copying and formatting happening on all the sites from which Google pulls the samples.

Thank goodness: I was seriously doubting the whole RAL / Pantone thing!

 

[Osgood]

This should really be in another thread but it seemed right for here!

 

[Chas Levin]

Excellent! I think that belongs here very much Tony, thank you for posting it. I'm as inclined as any other modeller to take things too seriously sometimes, so - get ready for this one - it's always good to lighten the tone!!

After all the staring at shades of green, I went to take another look at the actual wagon bodies and the photo I posted makes them look considerably lighter than they actually are, so when I'm posting the next photos of them - probably when they're united with the chassis, or when they have transfers on them - I'll try to get a more realistic rendering on screen of the shade.

 

[Chas Levin]

A bit more work done on the chassis last night, still considering whether I can fit safety chains with model couplings without them looking a bit also-ran:



And it's just occurred to me that the horizontal planks of the brakeman's platforms at each end of the upper body should presumably not be green at all, but instead in the same colouring as the planks inside the wagons are going to be, though perhaps less distressed...?

 

[Tim Hale]

The usual two cent’s worth.

When, in the ‘70s, the manufacturers began falling over themselves and each other to release ‘Ep1 ltd Ed’s’ they were invariably very dodgy colour schemes applied to bog standard production models. There was no effort to ensure that post ‘23 features were removed and it seemed the more garish the scheme to attract the buyer was the order of the day. The now lost collection of 1:10 models at Nurnberg museum were contemporary with the prototype as were the liveries but none of the manufacturers took heed of their presence.
Before Fleischmann folded into Roco there was an outbreak of sanity and some previously released rainbow warriors were offered in the correct ‘dull but correct’ schemes, these are now highly collectable.

In short, take most manufacturers offerings with a huge pinch of salt. The start of the common wagon pooling, was the end of multi-colours of the 19th century and the beginning of 20th century economic reality.

Tim

 

[Chas Levin]

The usual two cent’s worth.

When, in the ‘70s, the manufacturers began falling over themselves and each other to release ‘Ep1 ltd Ed’s’ they were invariably very dodgy colour schemes applied to bog standard production models. There was no effort to ensure that post ‘23 features were removed and it seemed the more garish the scheme to attract the buyer was the order of the day. The now lost collection of 1:10 models at Nurnberg museum were contemporary with the prototype as were the liveries but none of the manufacturers took heed of their presence.
Before Fleischmann folded into Roco there was an outbreak of sanity and some previously released rainbow warriors were offered in the correct ‘dull but correct’ schemes, these are now highly collectable.

In short, take most manufacturers offerings with a huge pinch of salt. The start of the common wagon pooling, was the end of multi-colours of the 19th century and the beginning of 20th century economic reality.

Tim

Evening Tim, thank you, your 2 cent's worth is a good amount to me at current exchange rates, as that's interesting info.

I had found some of the early German Ltd Edn sets on Ebay whilst looking at what the RTR folks had done and the first thing I'd noticed was the 'wonderful' and - to me - unexpected range of colours, deep blues, bright reds, oranges and yellows! I haven't yet started reading through (and translating) the Diener book in detail but even at a quick glance, I had assumed that considerable commercial license had been taken. I have to admit I did rather fancy the Trix Esslingen loco, but not at the cost of the complete set.

I'm interested to learn that Fleischmann later did some more authentic liveries; 'dull but correct' is good for me. I have some of their 1960s and 70s locos that my dad bought new, mainly black but others such as the green E69 too, a childhood favourite, which are probably closer to being authentic than the rainbow warrior stuff, but was that perhaps more to do with the limitations of model painting technology at that time than any serious research? Their blue and white Edelweiss livery presumably dates from before the sanity outbreak.

I do indeed take these things with a pinch of salt and I don't get too hung up on colour shades. I read quite a large amount about this subject whilst building and then painting a GNR C2 (there are photos upthread on here) and learned about how very difficult it is to be sure of these things at this date, so provided it's in the same ball park, I'm happy.
These wagons are now a reasonably suitable green for somewhere in the latter half of the nineteenth century and I also now understand why they were that rather light red oxide colour on the kit box top (and why they also had air brake hoses), because they're being shown there in post 1920s appearance.

Thank you for the reassurance though, always good to have someone else tell you not to get carried away!

 

[Tim Hale]

Does this help, a small selection of self-painted locos with plates by Kuswa, a world away from the frog-green KPEV models from Fleischmann? By 1916 most goods wagons were a common red-oxide, most goods locos were plain black.

 

[Tim Hale]

SORRY ABOUT THE POSITIONING OF THE TEXT/IMAGES, SEVERELY LIMITED BY CHOICE OF HARDWARE WHILST PERCHED ON THE EDGE OF MY COT IN KLINIKUM-BAMBERG……

Tim

 

[Chas Levin]

Thanks Tim; yes, that's a very different colour isn't it, much more like something I'd call olive, or 'olive-infused', if that doesn't sound too much like a salad... And no need to apologise for the text layout, the content is entirely clear! I have to say though that I think that's more olive and less green than RAL 6009. Could that be ascribed to differences between the KWStE and KPEV?

Between these photos and @Osgood 's very good paint-matching site linked upthread (which I've been looking at further) I'm still unsure as to whether what I've got is too far away from the RAL6009 ball-park or not.

Here's another photo, an attempt to have it appear on screen as similarly as possible to how it appears in real life. This was taken in natural, but not in bright, direct daylight. I then adjusted the colour of the photo, with one of the wagons next to the screen for comparison and what I'm seeing on the screen now is very close to what I'm seeing in real life and, I'm sure you'll agree, very different to my previously posted photos of the bodies, which were taken under bright artificial lighting:



What's interesting is that moving the model into bright, directional daylight changes the appearance of the paintwork in terms of illumination (I'm trying to choose my words carefully there, meaning that it changes light intensity only) but it doesn't change the colour in terms of hue, saturation, or warmth (words leared from editing photos and hopefully being used correctly here).

Taking pictures on my phone and viewing them onscreen however, certainly does change all those things, unless I compensate for them. I still haven't got it spot on - the wagon has a very slightly more olive (= yellow = warm?) tint, where this photo is ever so slightly more towards the blue / cold end, but this is pretty close.

I edited this post, because I'd originally replied saying I was off to strip the wagon bodies a second time and have another go at matching, but looking at them made me realise yet again what a huge difference there is between the real life colour and the photos I'd so far posted. It's very odd sometimes, the way things seem right one moment, and wrong the next..

 

[Tim Hale]

View attachment 189388Does this help, a small selection of View attachment 189387self-painted locos with plates by Kuswa, a world away from the frog-green KPEV models from Fleischmann? By 1916 most goods wagons were a common red-oxide, most goods locos were plain black.

View attachment 189386

The chassis colour for the Fleischmann T3 and T9 are wrong, it should be dark brown red as the T7 from PMT

 

[Chas Levin]

The chassis colour for the Fleischmann T3 and T9 are wrong, it should be dark brown red as the T7 from PMT

That's another German RTR colour I've always found a little suspect, the eye-achingly bright red chassis. I realise it's not paint, it's the actual plastic in use, but they would have altered the plastic colour itself to be slightly less toy-like. Mind you, Fleischmann, great company, sold a lot of models over the years (some to me and some to my dad!) so I hesitate to be too critical.

So sorry when the combined Fleischmann/Roco company chose to leave HO with Roco and remove it from the Fleischmann range: I'd have greatly preferred it done the other way round, but no doubt they felt they were doing what was best to try to ensure the long-term continuation of both brands, which is of course the best outcome.

By the way, I should also have said, Tim, whilst commenting on the olive-like appearance of your locos, that your paintwork looks absolutely top notch: airbrush, or hand brush?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A bit late to the party but I have come across these for K.Bay Sts.B but no RAL equivalents. The attached PDF for KPEV close RAL matches.

I haven't found anything for Königlich Württembergischen Staatseisenbahnen (KWStE) yet.

I've also found this for KPEV, KWStE, K.Bay Sts.B and Pfalz locomotives VLL - Modellbau für EEP but nothing similar for personenwagen and güterwagen.

 

[Chas Levin]

A bit late to the party but I have come across these for K.Bay Sts.B but no RAL equivalents. The attached PDF for KPEV close RAL matches.

I haven't found anything for Königlich Württembergischen Staatseisenbahnen (KWStE) yet.

I've also found this for KPEV, KWStE, K.Bay Sts.B and Pfalz locomotives VLL - Modellbau für EEP but nothing similar for personenwagen and güterwagen.

Thanks Dave - not too late to the party to pour yourself a drink and pull up a chair!

Very interesting material though as you say, something of a concentration on locos, but then that's often the way. I'll translate and read through it though: sometimes there's a little piece of information tucked away in the middle of other things...

For instance, that Laenderbahn forum site has another section called 'Projekte', with some wagon builds. The first two - lovely vehicles and beautifully built - illustrate, with the photos of the finished vehicles towards the foot of each page, the effects of different lighting on paint colours. Assuming they were painted with the same paint, the Auxiliary & Props Wagon looks a far cooler / bluer green than the open goods wagon, which has a disctinctly olive tinge. From the look of the photos, the open goods looks to have been photographed in the late afternoon, with low sun coming from the side, where the Aux & Props one appears to be in more direct, 'whiter' light.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The colours are one of the problems with Länderbahnen as the RAL classification did not come into being until the DRG era in the 1920s.

Up until then I suspect the paints were mixed 'locally' by the loco, carriage and wagon builders to a known formula and I would guess the difficulty is finding these as they may have been 'lost' during the various conflicts, mergers and takeovers.

For the KWStE wagon and van greens I would personally steer towards the KPEV colours RAL6003 (Olivegrün) and RAL6008 (Braungrün) - or a mix of the two - which happen to be pre WWII RAL colours. Or even the DDR DR TGL2233 (Dunkelgrün) used on electric locomotives which (in my eyes) is not the same as RAL6007 (Flaschengrün) used on carriages, baggage cars, postal cars and electric locos and the later RAL6020 (Chromoxydgrün) used on the same vehicles.

 

[Chas Levin]

A bit late to the party but I have come across these for K.Bay Sts.B but no RAL equivalents.

Dave, this KBayStsB page is absolutely fascinating, partly because of the information on colours and their adoption that it gives but also, because it includes discussion from the time (the 1840s) as to the relative suitability of those colours, so it gives some insight into why they favoured particular colour choices, something I've always wondered about...

 

[Chas Levin]

The colours are one of the problems with Länderbahnen as the RAL classification did not come into being until the DRG era in the 1920s.

Up until then I suspect the paints were mixed 'locally' by the loco, carriage and wagon builders to a known formula and I would guess the difficulty is finding these as they may have been 'lost' during the various conflicts, mergers and takeovers.

For the KWStE wagon and van greens I would personally steer towards the KPEV colours RAL6003 (Olivegrün) and RAL6008 (Braungrün) - or a mix of the two - which happen to be pre WWII RAL colours. Or even the DDR DR TGL2233 (Dunkelgrün) used on electric locomotives which (in my eyes) is not the same as RAL6007 (Flaschengrün) used on carriages, baggage cars, postal cars and electric locos and the later RAL6020 (Chromoxydgrün) used on the same vehicles.

Thanks Dave, interesting info too. Both RAL6003 and 6008 do look a little warmer (or more olive/yellow-tinged) than 6009 - with the usual provisos about the fact that I'm viewing things on a screen - don't they.
Another factor here are the shifting sands of the human brain: having looked at 6009 and similar shades for the last couple of days, my perception of it was a fairly warm shade; but then, comparing it with 6003 and 6008 (which latter shade is definitely a brown-green, I think) I find 6009 suddenly appearing to my eyes much cooler looking...

The business you mention of local depots mixing their own paint and the loss of the formulae is of course another issue, the same with historical colour research worldwide I guess: certainly I've come across the same issues with the Great Northern Railway in England. There's also the point that while the depot foreman may have directed his staff to mix a colour up from a known formula, the mix might have varied considerably from one day to the next, and from one depot to the next, particularly if a mamber of the paintshop staff had - perhaps unknowingly - a touch of colour blindness, or somebody didn;t have quite the right type or amount of one colour to use that day but pressed on regardless...

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Without dwelling too much on the subject, colours are subjective as a matter of course and as you've alluded to there were/are many factors involved when each batch was/is made up:

Eyesight.
The pigment source and quality.
The liquid/solvent source and quality.
One man's measure is not the same as the next man's measure for mixing ratios.
The colour temperature of the light it is being mixed in for appearence (daylight, artificial light, dawn, dusk, etc).
The ambient temperature and relative humidity it is being mixed in.
Cleanliness of the mixing container.

Bit like baking a cake - we use the same recipe but each time we bake one no two will be absolutely identical (unless we're baking them at the same time from the same batch mixture).

On the topic of painting models I always paint in daylight and go with what looks right - by the time I've applied some weathering who will notice.

I model 1980-2002 DB and fortunately most of the important RAL colours are available in the Vallejo, MiG and Revell acrylic paint ranges - otherwise it's off to Weinert (€€€s).

 

[Chas Levin]

Dave, wise words!

Your list of factors affecting each batch mixed is succinct and surely comprehensive - I can't think of anything you've missed - and your 'cake-baking from the same recipe' analogy is a very good one.

Unfortunately - in this contect at any rate - I don't weather my models, so I have to live with my colour choices as they are; perhaps that's partly why I worry about them so much. Which is not to say of course that you - or anyone else - is more casual about their choices than I am, just a way of finding reasons why I get so concerned about them.