NBR Coal Wagon

Discussion in 'G3' started by Jon Nazareth, 27 February 2019.

  1. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I bought one of these from Mike Williams at the AGM on Saturday and in time, the finished model will be shown here. In the meantime,
    1. Can anyone tell me the significance of the 'Crescent' and the 'Flower' motifs that appear on the sides?
    2. What sort of wording etc., would appear on the sides of the wagon if it were a private owner?
    3. As a private owner, would it have a number plate on the solebar?


  2. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Not knowing for sure, but an educated guess.
    The flower is probably the NBR 'illiterate' mark. Though rather odd it put on the door since itll be hidden when loading.

    The crescent has a number within it, however it doesnt seem to reference the wagon number. Perhaps some means of other identification mark. How were these wagons used in traffic?

    These wagons were used for PO stock?

    Unrelated, I hope the brakes fit together OK, I had a hand in designing the crank and was a little unsure about my angles.
  3. Dog Star

    Dog Star Western Thunderer

    The number in the crescent is the year that the wagon was painted most recently.
    Wagonman likes this.
  4. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Quite the interesting place for a paint date.
  5. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Western Thunderer

    Jon, some of them were private owner but you will have to wait until after the weekend before I can offer any details - The relevant copy of Tatlow is at the other house.
  6. Mike W

    Mike W Western Thunderer

    Jon, Google Oxford Rail who do one in 4mm - I think. They also do several P.O. liveries which seem to be rather more accurate than their model. Many liveries were very ornate.

  7. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    A couple of references which should be available at a reasonable price - John Hooper, Wagons of the LNER - NORTH BRITISH (Irwell Press 1991) and Railway Archive No 34 has an extended piece on Scottish Traders' Wagons.

    The crescent and quatrefoil markings have already been explained. This design of wagon is distinctively North British Railway and I haven't noticed any actual private owner wagons exactly matching all the details (usually the end door varies), however the North British hired quite a few wagons to traders and lettered them with the traders names. These wagons did have the NBR number plates on the solebars, and usually the quatrefoil and paint date crescent. The Hooper book has a photo of wagon lettered J.N. & Co. Slamannan (James Nimmo), and the Railway Archive has another. There are other examples of other traders on similar wagons. The hired wagons seem to have remained in standard NBR grey with the traders lettering in white.

    One thing to watch out for is the length of the wagon. The 1886 design (drawing No. 130WB is in Hooper) has a 7'6" wheelbase. These were the real Jubilee (1887) wagons and were originally dumb buffered and later converted. The 1896 version were also known as Jubilee wagons but were 1 foot longer with 8'6" wheelbase and built with sprung buffers. The two look remarkably similar and all the difference in length is in the centre so the longer wagon has a 1 foot wider door. The Parkside (ex Kirk) kit in 7mm is one of the 1896 type.
    unklian, Ian_T, Mike W and 2 others like this.
  8. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Thank you all, for your replies. I shall definitely look up those two books and the info on the James Nimmo wagon. His initials are the same as my own so, my wagon may carry the JN.

  9. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I've looked at Oxford Rail and the Newbattle wagon looks interesting especially with the thistle.

  10. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer


    I've seen a model of the above wagon with a red-orange livery but there is no reference to this company's livery in either Railway Archive N0. 34 nor North British No. 1 by John Hooper. Can anyone verify the colour, please?

    Michael Osborne and Ian_T like this.
  11. daifly

    daifly Western Thunderer

    Now why would a J.N. & Co. wagon be of interest to Jon Nazareth I wonder?
    simond likes this.
  12. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I am sure the wagon in the photo is painted North British grey with the J.N. & Co. lettering in white. One of the Caledonian experts should be able to confirm whether James Nimmo also hired wagons from the Caledonian Railway, if so the base colour would be CR red oxide with white lettering. The wagon would also be different - the Caledonian wagons of similar size and appearance (CR Diag 46 being the closest to the 1896 NBR design, CR Diag 22 were similar to the 1886 NBR ones) had cupboard type side doors. James Nimmo also owned considerable numbers of wagons, but from the photos I have seen they were later wagon types. Looking again at the two photos of J.N. & Co. hired NBR wagons I think they are both the shorter 7'6" wheelbase type. I don't know if the longer version were also hired.

    Without knowing anything about the Oxford Diecast wagons it looks like they have copied liveries from the Parkside Dundas O scale preprinted range. Parkside Dundas used the NBR wagon as a near enough stand in for a lot of liveries carried by generally similar Scottish wagons and most (all?) were not 100% accurate reproductions.
    Ian_T likes this.
  13. JimG

    JimG Western Thunderer

    Last edited: 7 March 2019
    Overseer likes this.
  14. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Overseer, Jim
    Thank you for the input and as I'm in no particular hurry, I'll wait for the book.

  15. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Apart from the initials, another reason to adopt this livery (red/orange) is because my present wagons are all varying shades of grey and the red/orange would add a distraction. By the way, the model that I have has a wheelbase of 8' 6".

  16. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    The more that I look at the picture of the J Nimmo wagon, the more that I'm convinced that it is completely grey. Even the elements below the sole bar appear to be grey but, I wait to be corrected not being aufait with NBR liveries.

  17. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    I've just read that J Nimmo's wagons were painted 'brown oxide' but the one in the picture above definitely looks grey to me. I've now sent an email to E McKenna asking for his opinion.

  18. Overseer

    Overseer Western Thunderer

    I agree. The NBR livery was grey all over with only the springs and w irons black but they would have faded to grey. On new wagons the other ironwork was often black as well but rarely after repaints. Nimmo's own wagons were probably brown oxide but not the wagons thirled (hired) from NBR.
  19. Jon Nazareth

    Jon Nazareth Western Thunderer

    Here it is finished. The only thing that I'm really not happy about is the way that the transfers didn't go down into the plank joints despite the application of Micro Sol. When I inspected the wagon the following morning, my attention was on the initials and I didn't notice what was happening at the ends of the 'sheets'. I'll try another picture to highlight what I mean. As the intitial/writing looked okay, I went ahead with varnishing. It wasn't until all was dry that I noticed the problem. I haven't reapplied the Micro Sol as I didn't think that it would work now that all was varnished, hey ho.
    I changed a couple of small things to that which I had noticed on earlier wagons, no wooden brake shoes though, including the pin for the brake lever and the slightly different hanger for the brake push rod. The crescent looks odd where it is but that's how it is in the picture. The lack of number plate is because the picture above is not clear enough to see where it is nor what the number is. If someone has an idea then, I can always order some up at a later date.
    I've managed another picture and the problem is highlighted. Because the transfer didn't sit right down, there is a visible gap :(.


    IMG_3634.JPG IMG_3635.JPG IMG_3636.JPG IMG_3635-001.JPG
  20. Spitfire2865

    Spitfire2865 Western Thunderer

    Maybe if you took a knife to the decals on the plank line, you could get under them with microsol and revarnish? Might require a bit of paint touchup though.
    michael mott and adrian like this.