Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
That sounds good.
Nick Dunhill's 7mm workbench.
- Thread starter Nick Dunhill
- Start date
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Nick,
After our discussions and research toward that linkage and contraption I found this yesterday on the web
DSCF0242 by Rail Simulator, on Flickr
Proof...as if we ever needed it
This handle has nothing to do with the water pick-up, it's used to open the "cods mouth"
OzzyO.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
We weren't talking about the handle, we were discussing the label underneath in relation to the funnel to the right and linkage below.
Keep up at the back of the class now
Nice to see you back
MD
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
The small handle near the top of the tube was used to indicate the level of the water in the tank by rotating it so that it was parallel to the coal face of the tender. It then had a set of small holes that would let water out in line with a set of markers on the tender side. You can see the top marker just below the handle. When the tender was full from using the water toughs it would come out of the overflow at the top of the main tube.
OzzyO.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Absolutely correct, but at high speed by the time the water level got to the top of the tube it was too late, so the LNER 8 wheel tenders had an extra overflow pipe set to siphon water off into the funnel when the tank was nearly full, then the water scoop could be lifted before it over filled.
To stop water coming out of the tube and into the funnel when braking or when the tank was full up, a linkage to a stop valve was fixed to the water scoop mechanism.
Mick D
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Old Ex. L.M.S. men that I knew always said that depending how much water they wanted would depend when they would dip the scoop into the trough. When you look at the film the fireman has to work to get the scoop up and the ex L.N.E.R. ones were better to use due to how the handle was placed.
On most troughs you could just dip in the middle (depending on how much water you wanted) and leave the scoop down. Unless you had a set of points or level crossing coming up.
The more water that you were picking up the harder it was to to get the scoop to wind up.
Where Did the L.N.E.R. tenders have the main tank vents for the air /water?
OzzyO.
On most troughs you could just dip in the middle (depending on how much water you wanted) and leave the scoop down. Unless you had a set of points or level crossing coming up.
The more water that you were picking up the harder it was to to get the scoop to wind up.
Where Did the L.N.E.R. tenders have the main tank vents for the air /water?
OzzyO.
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Ozzy, there's two small vents on the tender inside the coal space up against the front bulkhead. They don't look man enough to vent at high speed, that's why they had this pre warning arrangement I suppose. Once the tank was full then it simply stopped filling up, which then turned the scoop into a very effective dam. This overspill killed a traveling inspector on the Elizabethan Express, when the up and down Elizabethan Expresses passed each other whilst both taking water. the spray from one kicked up the ballast and a piece went through the windscreen and hit the inspector on the head.
At the time of the incident both trains were said to be traveling in excess of 80mph, certainly the flat racing grounds north of York regularily saw the top expresses traveling at very high speeds (relative for the day).
After that, both expresses were retimed to pass the water troughs a few minutes apart, in addition, all A4 engines....and I suspect other classes in time...had the front spectacle plates replaced with armoured glass. In addition, underneath the tender two large long plates were secured either side of the scoop and inside of the wheels to keep any over spray under the tender.
Mick D
At the time of the incident both trains were said to be traveling in excess of 80mph, certainly the flat racing grounds north of York regularily saw the top expresses traveling at very high speeds (relative for the day).
After that, both expresses were retimed to pass the water troughs a few minutes apart, in addition, all A4 engines....and I suspect other classes in time...had the front spectacle plates replaced with armoured glass. In addition, underneath the tender two large long plates were secured either side of the scoop and inside of the wheels to keep any over spray under the tender.
Mick D
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Len Cattley
Western Thunderer
You two certainly new your stuff on the water pickup.
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Hello mikoo,
thanks for the reply, if that was the case with L.N.E.R. tenders I think that most of the air would have been vented by the water filler on the top of the tender. As IIFC the tops of L.N.E.R. tender water tanks were a bit higher at the front? This would give a bit of air space above the rear of the tender tank top.
Now for a question, that I know the answer for.
You have a double headed train and both locos want water, who dips first? and why.
OzzyO.
thanks for the reply, if that was the case with L.N.E.R. tenders I think that most of the air would have been vented by the water filler on the top of the tender. As IIFC the tops of L.N.E.R. tender water tanks were a bit higher at the front? This would give a bit of air space above the rear of the tender tank top.
Now for a question, that I know the answer for.
You have a double headed train and both locos want water, who dips first? and why.
OzzyO.
Never thought about it, but I guess it has to be the rear loco as the scoop in the leading loco will cause a large wave. At least by dipping first the rear will get a drink before the glass is taken away.
Talking of which, are you up for a pint (or two) at Telford?
mickoo
Western Thunderer
Ozzy, yes the tank will vent through the water filler, but only if the locking hasp has been left off which by the nature of it's design tends to self lock when the lid is droppped down. I recall reading somewhere that leaving Top shed with a water filler open was a reprimandable event. And yes, due to the design of LNER 8 wheel tender there is cavity at the front corners so those vents are there for that purpose.
Regarding double heading, I always believed it was an operational requirement in that the second engine is the booked 'train' engine and takes priority over the 'pilot' which is added or taken off the front as required.
David, the wave would only be present when the scoop is down, as soon as it has lifted then the train will pass to clear water very quickly and the second 'trailing' scoop should be able to lower with no issues.
MD
which by the nature of it's design tends to self lock when the lid is droppped down. I recall reading somewhere that leaving Top shed with a water filler open was a reprimandable event. And yes, due to the design of LNER 8 wheel tender there is cavity at the front corners so those vents are there for that purpose.Regarding double heading, I always believed it was an operational requirement in that the second engine is the booked 'train' engine and takes priority over the 'pilot' which is added or taken off the front as required.
David, the wave would only be present when the scoop is down, as soon as it has lifted then the train will pass to clear water very quickly and the second 'trailing' scoop should be able to lower with no issues.
MD
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Hello all,
in the replies re doubled trains, you are both correct the train loco (second one) takes the water first. This is for a number of reasons.
1st, it would normally be a larger loco (but not always) and use more water.
2nd, if the lead loco takes the water first it can leave the trough low on water behind it, as the trough will not fill as quick as the water is removed.
Also if the front loco was going to pick up water the second loco should have its front dampers shut.
Just for a bit of fun, the water level in a trough was approx. 1 1/2" above the railhead and the scoop when lowered was approx. 1" below railhead so the scoop could be dipped in to 2 1/2" that would be a lot of water being picked up at 60mph. Most troughs were at least 1500' long. You may like this photo this photo is copyright.
ATB
OzzyO.
in the replies re doubled trains, you are both correct the train loco (second one) takes the water first. This is for a number of reasons.
1st, it would normally be a larger loco (but not always) and use more water.
2nd, if the lead loco takes the water first it can leave the trough low on water behind it, as the trough will not fill as quick as the water is removed.
Also if the front loco was going to pick up water the second loco should have its front dampers shut.
Just for a bit of fun, the water level in a trough was approx. 1 1/2" above the railhead and the scoop when lowered was approx. 1" below railhead so the scoop could be dipped in to 2 1/2" that would be a lot of water being picked up at 60mph. Most troughs were at least 1500' long. You may like this photo this photo is copyright.
ATB
OzzyO.
Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
Does anyone have a picture of the Turbomotive gearbox outside the loco frames?
Ta
Nick
Ta
Nick
OzzyO
Western Thunderer
Nick,
the turbine block and drive gear were all between the frames. What you want are photos of the inside showing the gear box and the turbine box.
The casings on the side of the engine are only parts of the controls for the steam. Non of the turbine gear was on the outside of the loco frames. The drive to the front axle was almost like a nose hung traction motor.
In the next photo it should show that there is no turbines on the out side of the frames. but what you can see is the valves for the steam, 3 on the side nearest to us for rearward running. Then on the far-side 6 for forward running.
390 RPM = 90 MPH and that's for a 6'6" wheel at full size, what would that look like on a model?
ATB
OzzyO.
the turbine block and drive gear were all between the frames. What you want are photos of the inside showing the gear box and the turbine box.
The casings on the side of the engine are only parts of the controls for the steam. Non of the turbine gear was on the outside of the loco frames. The drive to the front axle was almost like a nose hung traction motor.
In the next photo it should show that there is no turbines on the out side of the frames. but what you can see is the valves for the steam, 3 on the side nearest to us for rearward running. Then on the far-side 6 for forward running.
390 RPM = 90 MPH and that's for a 6'6" wheel at full size, what would that look like on a model?
ATB
OzzyO.
Nick Dunhill
Western Thunderer
I have this picture (bottom left)
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/93892/618573.jpg
But wondered if anyone had a pic with the cover on?
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/93892/618573.jpg
But wondered if anyone had a pic with the cover on?
simond
Western Thunderer
Ozzy
At any scale speed, the model wheels would be doing the same rpm as the real thing.
6'6" = scale 45.5mm diameter, which is nigh on 143 mm circumference.
90mph = 1.5 miles per minute, 2413 metres / minute, which scales as 55.5 metres per minute
390 rpm x 0.143 = 55.77 metres / minute, so near enough.
Best
Simon
At any scale speed, the model wheels would be doing the same rpm as the real thing.
6'6" = scale 45.5mm diameter, which is nigh on 143 mm circumference.
90mph = 1.5 miles per minute, 2413 metres / minute, which scales as 55.5 metres per minute
390 rpm x 0.143 = 55.77 metres / minute, so near enough.
Best
Simon
Steph Dale
Western Thunderer
Nick,
Looking at the info presented, I think the cover must have been fitted once the gearbox was installed in the chassis, so you'd have to work to the drawings.
Steph
adrian
Flying Squad
No photo I'm afraid.
However just to point out that "The Engineer" article from which these photos were taken is available online.
The Engineer 1935 Jul-Dec
The article has few other photos, drawings and description which may be useful. A trawl of the indexes might even provide other relevant articles.