An Unusual Collection

[oldravendale]

After this set just eleven more to go and the entire collection will have been on WT. So, for today:

For the first two we're back at Stonebridge Park again. Described as "Stonebridge Park. 12 October 1960"


This one is described as "Unidentified Class L1 2-6-4T passes an LT ex Met Rly T Stock Train. Amersham. c1961." Now if that is correct and the loco really is an L1 which it appears to be this must be quite a rare photo, as the Aylesbury trains were being worked almost exclusively by Fairburn 2-6-4 tanks at the time. The dating is about right as electrification is completed which is confirmed by the T stock train in the head shunt.

However..... it has to be said that there remained a single L1 at Neasden, derelict at around this time, No 67739. I remember it well because I (ahem) liberated one of the bullseyes from one of the electric lamps on 7th October 1961...... Its final shed was Neasden and it was officially withdrawn in November 1961.


This one is Unidentified Coach Body. Possibly 1884 Met Rly Cravens Stock. Aylesbury. c1961. Dave did some research on this, identifying the location and suggesting a possible vehicle type. The full details he provided are: Aylesbury (looking towards Southcourt and the engine shed was just off to the right. Site later had the Schwarzkopf hair products factory which in turn was levelled for housing).



This one is Unidentified LT ex Met Railway T Stock Train. Amersham. c1961


Followed by "Unidentified LT ex Met Rly 7-compartment T Stock Trailer. Amersham. c1961." Quite possibly part of the same train.



Brian

 

[Engineer]

Quick and skimpy notes during a break, on post 401 - risk of subsequent adjustments:

Grounded coach body at Aylesbury: Former rigid 8-wheel stock, and could be a former Brake coach. It was a large family of vehicles, and with the aid of reference books could narrow down possible builders and build dates [1860s to 1880s?] . Thanks for sharing a new picture of this. There are other, closer views around that I can't lay hands on at the moment. I don't recall anyone being successful in discovering a specific number for the coach.

Motor Coach at Amersham, standing in platform 2 with Amersham destination plate and tail lamp, so probably next move is into the reversing sidings. It's one of six [Met numbers 206-211], originally having side buffers/screw couplings and running with Main Line Stock [Dreadnought] coaches. The Motor Coaches, and the three 7-coach trains they led, were classified MV by the Met Railway to recognise that the Motor Coaches had Vacuum Brake to be compatible with the trailing coaches, which themselves had modifications to their lighting and through control for traction and exhausters. The Motor Coaches had both Reavell Exhausters and CM38 compressors. In the LT era, these Motor coaches and trailing vehicles fell into the T-Stock designation and the Motor Coaches were modified to have Westinghouse brakes, Met.-style buckeye couplings and traction performance that was consistent with the rest of that family. Other pictures of this vehicle type have appeared in earlier posts.

7-compartment coach is 1929 Stock of the Met's MW family [i.e. running with Westinghouse brakes], becoming LT designation T Stock. It's a former First, downgraded. Looks like the train is standing in platform 3 at Amersham. Agreed, could well be the same train as in previous image that's returned from reversing siding and ready to depart in Up direction.

 

[76043]

Hi Brian,
That is quite late for an L1, the shedbash site concurs with you on 67739, but makes no mention of lamp parts...

Shed Bash UK: Neasden 1934 - 1962

Most were long gone by then as you say, so is interesting, sadly we'll never know what the ID is.

The second coach looks like it might be an ex-LMS 50' BG, I wonder what sort of train it is?

Tony

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the additional info, Tony. As it was the last L1 shedded at Neasden it's entirely possible that this was the loco on the train approaching Amersham. There would not have been much reason for keeping it going if there was a defect, however minor, as the L1s were well on their way out at the time and it's doubtful that any other shed would have had a use for it. It's just another of the questions to which we'll never get the answer.

As for the vehicles in the train, I'd not studied them previously, assuming that this was a local train of Met Dreadnought stock, but on closer examination I'm not so sure. Regrettably the image is not really sharp so there's a degree of guesswork involved, and that certainly does look like a parcels vehicle, and the profile of the remainder of the train does not look like Dreadnoughts. Could this therefore be a BR/LMR/GCR train rather than a Met local? That's another question to which I don't have the answer.

Engineer - more detail for which I'm very grateful. I believe there's another MV coming up in this final tranche. I also reckon that Mr Herbert took photos of most of the vehicles in one of the T stock trains and although these do not make for the most interesting subjects, catalogue shots as they are, they will have some use for anyone wanting to model these prototypes. These "Dreadnought" photos are possibly of the greatest interest.

Moving on...... this is the very last post of photos in this thread, although I know there is quite a bit of further research going on behind the scenes so this may well not be the final final posting. This has been a voyage of discovery for me and most entertaining. Doubtless some of our contributors are muttering grateful thanks that it's over. The coverage has been remarkable, from Baker St to the USA and back again via Liverpool! So even though this last lot are a bit pedestrian there's a sense of Mr Herbert "coming home", suspecting as we must that he lived right next to the Met main line. I'm so glad that I bought the collection and thank everyone who has taken an interest and helped build quite a significant body of detail. My next postings of prototypes will be from Tim Mills' collection and entirely different in nature - he's a steam man, through and through!

First an Unidentified LT ex Met Railway 1931 9-compartment T stock trailer at Amersham c 1961.


Unidentified LT ex Met Rly 1931 T Stock Trailer. Amersham. c1961. This is notable because it carries no beading and appears to be of all steel construction, as does the previous photo. Following vehicles are, however, beaded.


Another un-beaded and unidentified LT ex Met Rly 1931 T Stock Trailer. Amersham. c1961.


Unidentified LT ex Met Rly Dreadnought Brake Third behind Fairburn 2-6-4T No 42291. Amersham. c1961.


Unidentified LT ex Met Rly T Stock Driving Trailer. Amersham. c1961. I believe that this comprises part of the train in the first three photos.



Unidentified LT ex-Met Rly Dreadnought Seven Compartment Brake. Amersham. c1961. Yorkshire Dave confirmed the location of this one thus:
"Amersham (it's the new platform 3 before the diesel service commenced and with the siding)."



Unidentified LT ex-Met Rly Dreadnought Trailers. Aylesbury. c1961. Yorkshire Dave knew the location on this on this one too - "Aylesbury - the flower beds give it away as they are the same in my 1977 photo of Aylesbury."



Unidentified LT ex-Met Rly T Stock Driving Motor Car. Amersham. c1961.



Unidentified LT ex-Met Rly T Stock Trailer. Amersham. c1961. Clearly Mr Herbert just missed photographing the whole train while stationary!


And finally, appropriately, Wendover Station. c1961.



That's all, folks!

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Yorkshire Dave knew the location on this on this one too - "Aylesbury - the flower beds give it away as they are the same in my 1977 photo of Aylesbury."

Here's my aforementioned photo.

 

[Engineer]

Congratulations on making all the images viewable and available – many thanks. I have a few more loose ends still on previous posts however on yesterday’s material, post 404, agree with notes, some reflections:

Image 1 1931 Stock, 9-compartment is a Third Coach
Image 2 1931 Stock 7-compartment is a former First Coach
Image 3 1931 Stock, 9-compartment is a Third Coach
Image 4 Third Brake 1923 batch of originally six, some later rebuilt, so may be possible to narrow the options with more research. The orientation, ‘Baker Street’ end with traction supply bus line on the ‘Down’ side, might help with this.
Image 5 Driving Coach in T Stock family, most probably from the 1929 batch but some were conversions of Main Line Stock and I will do a double check when I can, just to eliminate the possibility.
Image 6 Main Line Stock [‘Dreadnought’] Third Brake, not a 1923 batch and potentially 1910 or 1912 batches. Although I’ve looked closely at this family of stock to investigate modelling detail, there are plenty of small variations at the Brake ends alone, and changes over time. Bit more work needed.
Image 7 Aylesbury former First- or Composite Coach, might be a bit more specific with more work.
Image 8 Confirm the former MV-series Motor Coach. Interesting how these seem to crop up.
Image 9 1929 Batch Third

On image 10, Wendover, I do just about recall that building. Seeing the LT ‘end-of-platform’ sign seemingly propped rather than in a fixed position, I wonder if the image dates from just before the transfer to LMR.

 

[Engineer]

Reflection on post 401 - the image with the Up main line train at Amersham [‘and Chesham B.’ according to the Working Timetable of the day]

There aren’t many direct clues but a bit of speculation might help others to point to possible workings which in turn might help with vehicles or locomotive. My checks are relatively rapid so risk of errors without further checking.

Images look like middle-of-day – afternoon time and with a bit more work the shadows there might be a more accurate guide.

We could speculate that the photographer is active at weekends and took batches of pictures on the same day, and that the applicable timetable is the first one with electric services north of Rickmansworth, and no A Stock in use.

Suitable Saturday main line ‘long-distance’/LMR Up services come through at:
1105 – 0840 ex Nottingham
1357 Parcels – 1115 ex Leicester
1429 – 1255 ex Woodford
1458 – 1230 ex Nottingham
1808 – 1655 ex Brackley
Not an exhaustive list, would need a second look, and haven’t included the LMR services originating at Aylesbury Town.

Suitable Sunday trains passing through:
1245 – 1005 ex Nottingham
1545 – 1315 ex Nottingham

On Saturdays and Sundays, there is a T Stock train in circulation numbered 16, seems to alternate Amersham and Watford visits so quite possible to be ‘seen’ on the same visit.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, David and Engineer again!! Once again some excellent stuff to supplement the details for each of the photos.

Brian

 

[Engineer]

A note with some reflections and extras on various previous posts:

Post 255, Conductor rails alongside platforms – when did they disappear?
A very few places on the network cannot avoid these things, of course, but there was early recognition that the hazard needed to be dealt with wherever practicable. On the Metropolitan, there’s a note in Minute Books from 1908 about moving the positive rail to the ‘six-foot’ with protection boards at a cost of £9 per station, to be done on maintenance. My random small sample of museum images found only odd remaining instances of the old practice by the 1920s. I’d suggest that the Underground Group took a similar approach.


Post 231 Starting arrangements for trains
There’s mention of starting arrangements for trains using a pair of wires above the platform at the Guard’s position. As an aside, I looked up some papers on the Metropolitan’s initial project to install these from the 1920s. There was a separate indicator aspect [probably black letter S on an opal background, back-lit] below the platform starting signal, and there was a bell, both set up when the wires were bridged by the Guard, and cancelled on departure. Another additional feature – a 4” ‘sheep gong’ at the rear of the platform that gave the Guard an indication of when the circuit had been made. Operating voltage for the controls was 120v, and the Guard’s wires were fed from 14 dry cells at 1.5 volts each, in series.

The image included here is a 2008 view showing Baker Street platform 3 Northbound starter, with a small legacy of the starting system installation remaining a few decades after the rest had been swept away. In this instance the signal head incorporated the starting indicator, below the stop aspect. It was not removed after decommissioning of the starting system, simply disused.


Post 234 - dating of the view of loco 11 at Baker Street, also referring to posts 231 [loco 9 at Baker Street 16 May 1937 ], 236, 237, 240, 268, 277, 280

I support the conclusion so far that the two views of electric locomotives at Baker Street are close in date. I’d say the date range was 1937 to 1939, 1938 most probable. For interest and completeness, here are small further circumstantial clues and some relevant asides, taken mostly from archived drawings.
Note in the loco 11 image a buffer stop of traditional appearance at the end of the loco siding.
Look above the signal box roof in both images, to see vestigial evidence of construction works, a crane runway and a crane on wheels.

Site plans show that this specific area was the construction and subsequent ventilation shaft above the new Southbound Bakerloo platform. Before, there had been an allotment in that area. I’d suggest that, along with the museum images of the same time, the construction activity on view is connected mostly to the Bakerloo extension. Works included a new escalator shaft down to the two Bakerloo Southbound platforms, and a circulating area connecting their top landings to the existing Metropolitan subway. There’s a drawing showing evidence of significant excavation for the circulating area beneath platform 4 and the track alongside it.

The timber structure looks to be a light roadway, either for a light mobile crane or for a rear-tipping vehicle to discharge to the lower level, and could have assisted with later stages of the shaft, escalator or subway works.

I speculate that the shaft was built with an expectation of a structure above it, and there may have been very early intentions for a canteen to be there.

There was another piece of construction activity affecting the loco siding, taking place around 1940 [the drawing date]. The loco siding was extended slightly, along with its pit, with a new concrete stop block. There was a 1939 drawing showing relative positions of buffers for locomotives, steam and electric stock, and 1938 Surface Stock leading me to speculate that the siding alterations/improvements included making sure it could accommodate a 2-car unit when uncoupling was taking place.

1943 is the very earliest that there’s any mention or sign of canteen in the surviving drawings with an existing site plan marked up with some key dimensions and levels. In the November of that year there is an initial block outline plan for the canteen site to-be. The twist here is that the mark-up plan includes a sketched hint of a clash between the newly-constructed buffer stop and siding end, and the canteen scheme. A pile cap was needed to support a column underneath the canteen superstructure, and the siding end was in the way. The change is confirmed by a 1946 drawing that shows siding length reduced by 8’ 9” and fitting of an LT-style metal buffer stop which may well have lasted until the redundancy of the siding.


Post 261 Moorgate 19 April 1962 and Q Stock [and posts 262, 265, 267, 270, 280]
The clue was in the date for the photograph, Maundy Thursday. In that era, on the working afternoon preceding a Bank Holiday, District Putney Bridge to Edgware Road trips were extended to Aldgate and timetables reissued specifically as part of the holiday service changes. I speculate that the extended services provided for increased through traffic flows over the section. There might have been some side advantages for route familiarity and for rostering.

There are other internet images of Q Stock on the North side of the Circle, and not only because of the District Sunday trips on the Circle.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mildmaypark/43833305925
https://www.facebook.com/groups/211521822550584/permalink/260090394360393/


Post 324 and a YD question
On Met. locomotives and rivets, I can help a bit. First, just for my research, where was the mention of rivets that prompted your interest? What’s the number of the loco you intend to build? – this will influence the answer.

There is a reasonably good starting point in the drawing incorporated in the second edition of Mr Benest’s book on the locomotives. It does need to be used with care and caveats, and does not give the total answer on its own. I can tailor a fuller answer depending on choice of loco number.

I think that’s all the old loose ends, other than continuing work on the identities of photographers.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Post 324 and a YD question
On Met. locomotives and rivets, I can help a bit. First, just for my research, where was the mention of rivets that prompted your interest? What’s the number of the loco you intend to build? – this will affect the answer.

The additional rivets are mentioned in the kit instructions stemming from partial rebuilds of the locos.

I'm building no. 3 Sir Ralph Verney (if I can get the nameplates!).

There is a reasonably good starting point in the drawing incorporated in the second edition of Mr Benest’s book on the locomotives. It does need to be used with care and caveats, and does not give the total answer on its own. I can tailor a fuller answer depending on choice of loco number.

I think I have the first edition of the book (1963) as it only has a general drawing in 4mm scale which does not show the solebar rivet patterns. The photo in the book does show the extra rivets but alas it's a three quarter view. A broadside view would have allowed me to work out their positions.

 

[Engineer]

Thanks for the specifics in post 410, appreciated. It helps me to know how much information is 'out there'.
Agree in general and in this instance, broadside views are sparse relative to three-quarters [same with end views, roof views...], which makes modeling just that bit harder for so many that care about getting things right.
I can put together for you the information you'll need to get all the rivets in the right places. Won't be today, but it will happen within days.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Engineer, for loads more detail. I'd never noticed that remnant of the old guard signalling system until you've pointed it out. I'll search it out for myself next time I take the Met to town, which happens rarely now as we live closer to the LNWR main line - and it's quicker!

Thanks also for your comments and help to Dave. I know how much he likes to get these things right.

I look forward to hearing more about possible photographers when you have the opportunity.

Brian

 

[Engineer]

I'm in the midst of work stuff at the moment but just noticed post 412.
Thanks for comments. Just a hint on Baker Street, it was a 2008 picture of mine, signalling has been changed now, so the evidence has gone. No Northbound starter at all on platform 3, route gone. I will have a wander round sometime to see if there's anything else on other stations but very long odds with all the ongoing changes - and more fairly soon.

 

[oldravendale]

Shame!

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just a hint on Baker Street, it was a 2008 picture of mine, signalling has been changed now, so the evidence has gone. No Northbound starter at all on platform 3, route gone. I will have a wander round sometime to see if there's anything else on other stations but very long odds with all the ongoing changes - and more fairly soon.

Probably find some of the removed infrastructure resides on one of the shelves in the Acton Museum. I've probably walked past it and not realised.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Thanks also for your comments and help to Dave. I know how much he likes to get these things right.

Too true - I'd like my Met Bo-Bo to be correct.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I've just been looking at the Met Bo-Bo photos again and noticed the Met did not use oil headlamps although they appear on the lamp irons. It can be seen they are turned to one side so are presumably tail lamps.

The Met (and later LT) used the triple headlights as the destination indicator even though a destination board was provided. I would assume the headlight code was for the benefit of signalmen both day and night.

In post 231 and 234 only the top headlight is lit indicating a Met and ER(later LMR) working which is confirmed by the destination board.

Post 247, Uxbridge, shows the top and bottom right headlights lit - destination Uxbridge.

Post 258 shows the top and bottom left headlight lit and this indicates a Watford direct train, again the destination board confirms this. The second Watford photo shows triple headlights which indicates the destination as Wembley Park. The destination board shows Baker Street and if this was the intended destination then the top and bottom left headlights would have been switched off at Wembley Park before continuing to Baker Street.

Post 366 (the test train at Chorleywood) is difficult to determine but the chances are it would be the bottom two lit to return to Neasden.

This is an extract from a 1959 copy of an Ian Allan ABC London Transport Railways detailing the Met headcodes.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Just looked at post 366 again and the destination is Wembley Park, therefore triple headlights will be displayed.

 

[Engineer]

Continuing to work on loose ends to improve comments for the permanent record.

Post 404 image 6 'Unidentified LT ex-Met Rly Dreadnought Seven Compartment Brake. Amersham. c1961.'
High probability that it is a Third Brake Coach from the 1910 batch

 

[oldravendale]

Dave and Engineer.

To both of you - many thanks indeed. Particular thanks for keeping at the collection even though my presentation is now complete. Your info builds some significantly detailed background to images which have, on their own, very little.

Brian