Hawthorn Leslie/English Electric shunter in 7mm

Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
There, I thought I'd got your attention...:D

In a few weeks/months time I expect to be taking delivery of a test etch for one of the LMS shunters in 7mm scale. In order to save embarrassment of both myself and the kit manufacturer I'll not mention who, or tell you what the exact loco is. All will be revealed in due course!

The slight problem is that I'm struggling for detail castings. I expect to employ one of the MMP detail sets for a Class 08 as, although it doesn't directly apply, does have an awful lot of useful 'gubbins' in the castings and frets.

Where I'm struggling is finding suitable axleboxes/guides. A set for an 08 would be ideal, but I don't know anyone who does them as a casting. So before I start making patterns and wondering about castings, I thought I'd ask here and see if anyone knows of a source of suitable axlebox/guide castings in 7mm scale.

Many thanks,

Steph
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Steph,

Pretty sure the 08 follows typical Derby practice for axle boxes and guides, thus suspect Jinty of Fowler 4F castings would be pretty close.

I have the Wild Swan 4F book so can look at the GA drawings and see if they are close, don't have the Jinty one though.

Img_1494.jpg
 
daifly

daifly

Western Thunderer
Modern Locomotives Illustrated issue 202 is published tomorrow (25th) and covers the BR Standard Diesel Shunters.
To quote the blurb:
'Issue 202 of Modern Locomotives Illustrated focuses on Classes 08, 09, 10and 13. We look at the unsung heroes of our railway - the BR standard design 350hp diesel-electric shunting loco. Issue 202 also covers the unique Class 13 ‘Master & Slave’ twin sets operated at Tinsley Yard.'
5401.jpg
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
mickoo said:
Pretty sure the 08 follows typical Derby practice for axle boxes and guides, thus suspect Jinty of Fowler 4F castings would be pretty close.
Click to expand...

Mick, I suspect you're right. As far as I can tell all the LMS diesel-electric shunters (including the jackshaft and 'dual motor' types) used the same hornguides; I'm just not sure they're the same as any of the steam locos. Or whether any of the manufacturers do scale ones rather than versions which are designed to work with the standard 8mm square bearing. I like your thinking though and will investigate further.

ZiderHead said:
Are these the same type that GWR had a couple of? (Hawthorn Leslie?)
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Jon, yep; somehow they all ended up using the same hornguides....! And that includes the GWR (No.2 and 15101 series) and the later standard shunters (08-10,13) and even Bulleid's Class 12. I'm less sure about the LNER locos as I haven't looked and the Ashford/EE ('Maunsell') locos seem to use same hornguides as later Ashford tenders.

daifly said:
Modern Locomotives Illustrated issue 202 is published tomorrow (25th) and covers the BR Standard Diesel Shunters.
Click to expand...
Thanks Dave, I'll try and get hold of a copy.

mickoo said:
That may not be indicative of a poor kit, could just have been poorly assembled :thumbs:
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No, it's a poor kit. The cab roof profile is laughable and in many ways it's a hybrid of Class 08 and LMS shunter. Avoid.

Steph
 
mickoo

mickoo

Western Thunderer
Steph,

Quick check on horn guide castings, the nearest style to the 08 is actually the LMS Coronations, you'd only need trim the lower bolt off (marked in red on drawing) to make a very close match as far as I can see, all the others I've looked at are not even close in outline, that's, Black 5, Princess, Royal Scot, 4F, 8F.

Crop of drawing and measurement of 08 axle box, significantly smaller than the Coronation but as the 08 has no bridging piece across the top of the guides it'd be easy enough to affix the side pieces to the required width.

Image1.jpg

Img_6322.jpg

HTH
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Mick,

I can see where you're coming from...

I've just had out a stack of source materials including; an MMP Class 08 kit (as in the process of being used to make a Class 12), a Finney 'Duchess' hornblock set and one of each of the LMS Locomotive Profiles on the Coronations and Shunters.

Unfortunately, although of a similar style, they're very different in size; both model and prototype.

Close, but no cigar (yet?!). I'll have a further look around and see if there's anything that would catch my eye. To be honest the idea of making the things from scratch doesn't seem too scary; I just hate duplicating other people's work...

Steph
 
ZiderHead

ZiderHead

Western Thunderer
Steph Dale said:
Jon, yep; somehow they all ended up using the same hornguides....! And that includes the GWR (No.2 and 15101 series) and the later standard shunters (08-10,13) and even Bulleid's Class 12. I'm less sure about the LNER locos as I haven't looked and the Ashford/EE ('Maunsell') locos seem to use same hornguides as later Ashford tenders.
Click to expand...

Hi Steph

Sorry I meant the loco more generally, I understand the original LMS shunters were different in some ways to the BR 08, but were the GWR shunters the same as the LMS ones?
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
ZiderHead said:
Hi Steph

Sorry I meant the loco more generally, I understand the original LMS shunters were different in some ways to the BR 08, but were the GWR shunters the same as the LMS ones?
Click to expand...


Jon,

From a little research it appears that to all intents and purposes, yes; GWR No.2 was the same as the early twin-motor LMS locos; all were built by Hawthorn Leslie. There were detail differences (the GWR one appears to have been heavier and had larger fuel tanks) and the first LMS one was effectively the prototype for all of them so was different again.

The three Maunsell shunters on the Southern were also somewhat similar, but being built at Ashford rather than by a contractor were different in most details as well as having larger 4'6" wheels* and that whacky cab.

By the time we get to the last batch of (G)WR locos and the Class 11 there's a family likeness which then evolves through the adoption of 4'6" wheels* on the Class 12 quite obviously into the Classes 08,09,10 and variants.

So effectively there are three types; the earlier Hawthorn Leslie type, the later railway-built types and finally the BR 'standards'. The two Southern types being in many ways the stepping stones between the types.

I can recommend the 'LMS Locomotive Profiles, No.12 - The Diesel Electric Shunters' (Wild Sawn); 'LMS Diesel Locomotives and Railcars' (RCTS); 'The Diesel Shunter' (OPC); 'A Pictorial Record of the Diesel Shunter' (OPC) for a more complete story.

Steph

* The 4'6" wheels were an adaptation required on the Southern to keep traction equipment and side-rods well clear of 3rd rail infrastructure. The adoption of 4'6" wheels on the Standard shunters was to give a 'go anywhere' capability, rather than having to order locos with 4' drivers for the less progressive(!!?!) regions.
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
I thought now was probably as good a time as any to get back to this thread. Y'see 'it' has arrived.

'It' is a test etch for a 7mm scale version of the Judith Edge kit for the English Electric/Hawthorne Leslie shunter. I'm now trying to get together various bits and pieces to go in the box. There's the usual wheels, motors and gears to go in, of course, but also a load of other castings to find. I'll almost certainly grab one of the MMP detail sets for the Bachmann Brass 08 as it'll provide most of the cab interior details as well as fuel fittings and goodness knows what else. Actually one noticeable omission remains the cosmetic hornguides, which I can see I'm probably going to have to produce myself. The intention is to finish the model as either 12000 or 12001 in early BR black.

As an aside, I was hoping to do a scratchbuilt model of the prototype (7079) which became 12002 alongside my build of the test etch. I've found a couple of photos on RailOnline (http://railonline.zenfolio.com/), but would love to see more; if anyone has some references I'd love to know of them. I'm a bit perplexed about the lack of a handbrake cut-out in the back of the cab, so cab shots are especially welcome to help me work out what's going on with the brakes.

I seem to remember a feature in one of the earlier BRILL 'Diesel Dawn' pieces on these locos but can't find an index for BRILL, can anyone help, please?

Steph
 
daifly

daifly

Western Thunderer
Steph Dale said:
I seem to remember a feature in one of the earlier BRILL 'Diesel Dawn' pieces on these locos but can't find an index for BRILL, can anyone help, please?

Steph
Click to expand...
C'mon Steph - that's not a real challenge at all! Try here. (You might want to start with Vols 5 & 4!)
HTH
Dave
 
Steph Dale

Steph Dale

Western Thunderer
Right, let's get this show on the road. Like others on this forum I like to have a couple of jobs on the go. With the gearboxes and hornblocks now in production and a small quantity of customer work progressing through the 'shop at an appropriate rate I thought I'd better make a start on this while thinking about the next things that will emerge from Chez SDMP in due course...

Here's what we have so far. This isn't the exhaustive set, but it's a damned good start and the minimum set of items I needed before looking more closely at the build. Clockwise from top left we have:
Judith Edge instructions for 4mm scale EE/HL shunter, usefully appended with 7mm scale drawing.
Set of Slater's wheels (actually 7849o/c drivers from the MR Well Tank, but close enough)
MMP detailing set for the Bachmann Brassworks 08 which should provide many useful detail parts for the cab interior, body and underframe.
Slater's 7M72 coupling rods. These will need shortening and new crankpin bushes making. But being steel, will look nicely like, erm, steel when finished.
Slater's 7159 brake shoes. Just a time saver really...
A set of my 47961 hornguides (assembled) and the Slater's 7961 'insulated square bearings' to go with 'em.
In the cutter tube is a set of Colin (Eastsidepilot's) Class 08 outside cranks in steel. A stock item now Col?
A set of Gladiator LMS buffers
A Q-Car Co. Westinghouse compressor to stuff under the front bufferbeam.
Judith Edge EE/HL shunter test etches in 7mm -all in brass, hence steel chassis fittings.
One of my gearboxes loosely attached to the front of a Maxon motor.
IMG_8858v1.jpg

To come:
Springs for the hornblocks.
Strip and section
Glazing
Couplings
DCC decoder, speaker
Paint, solder, etc...

The research material has taken a bit of hunting. The RCTS book and the LMS loco profiles are very good for this group of shunters; the OPC shunters books much less so. Thanks to Dave for the pointer above, Vol4. No8 of BRILL was the one I was after; it's part 1 of three articles about the early BR shunters:
IMG_8860v1.jpg

So, next jobs:
Turn a new set of crankpin bushes to the small Slater's 'Manning Wardle' style, but tapped 12BA rather than a plain 12BA clearance hole. I can't use my usual 10BA crankpins on this one as the parts are so small a 10BA screw physically won't fit.
Make a quick jig and shorten the coupling rods
Cut slots in the frames ready for fitting the hornguides
Prepare the split axles
Finally sort out where I'm going to get or how I'm going to make the cosmetic axleboxes I still haven't sourced.

That'll do for now. More eventually!

Steph
 
SimonT

SimonT

Western Thunderer
how I'm going to make the cosmetic axleboxes
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Got some drawings? Print them and get insulation between two live axle ends and a shorting brass body. Is this a new drawing from Mike?

Simon
 
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