Mike Walker
Western Thunderer
The views of 300057 are at Wareham not Swanage although it is on the branch trin.
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Dave Holt
Western Thunderer
That's a rather strange train formation in the un-captioned photo below the last M7 shot (at Wareham). Almost looks like the two car train has been called up to give rear end assistance to the photographers train and is either on the single line Swanage branch or running wrong line?
Dave.
Dave.
John Palmer
Western Thunderer
I'll offer some suggestions about the 8th June 1962 photographs.
My charts of Southern Region route availability say that Merchant Navies were not authorised for use over the Swanage Branch, in which case Weymouth is overwhelmingly the most likely destination for the train first seen in img585 – and @Martin Shaw is spot on in his identification of that picture's location being the Holes Bay curve.
Moving on to the pictures of 30057 at Wareham and the Swanage Branch, the M7 is attached to the Branch push-pull train apparently comprising an air control-fitted Maunsell Open Third (Diag.2023) and Driving Brake Composite (Diag.2407). I guess that the Swanage portion of the train pictured in img585 has been detached at Wareham, with 8 carriages going forward to Weymouth behind the MN, judging by such carriage details as can be seen in that picture and img989. After the MN's departure towards Weymouth the Branch train has exited the Swanage Bay and coupled on to the detached portion left in the main line platform road before its own departure towards Swanage. That would then account for the M7 sandwich to be seen in img989.
The Q to be seen in img990 is pictured heading a down goods train into the passing loop at Corfe (where Tim presumably alighted from the Swanage portion in which he had been travelling). Since Corfe's Down Home signal is standing clear, it seems probable that the train is just completing its traverse of the Worgret Jc.-Corfe section, but for some reason the Q (unlike the M7) is displaying no disc on the central lower lamp iron of its tender, as would be appropriate for a train between Wareham and Swanage. Might this be indicative of a trip working to the intermediate sidings at Furzebrook, or just a case of the train crew not being bothered to put the disc in place?
My charts of Southern Region route availability say that Merchant Navies were not authorised for use over the Swanage Branch, in which case Weymouth is overwhelmingly the most likely destination for the train first seen in img585 – and @Martin Shaw is spot on in his identification of that picture's location being the Holes Bay curve.
Moving on to the pictures of 30057 at Wareham and the Swanage Branch, the M7 is attached to the Branch push-pull train apparently comprising an air control-fitted Maunsell Open Third (Diag.2023) and Driving Brake Composite (Diag.2407). I guess that the Swanage portion of the train pictured in img585 has been detached at Wareham, with 8 carriages going forward to Weymouth behind the MN, judging by such carriage details as can be seen in that picture and img989. After the MN's departure towards Weymouth the Branch train has exited the Swanage Bay and coupled on to the detached portion left in the main line platform road before its own departure towards Swanage. That would then account for the M7 sandwich to be seen in img989.
The Q to be seen in img990 is pictured heading a down goods train into the passing loop at Corfe (where Tim presumably alighted from the Swanage portion in which he had been travelling). Since Corfe's Down Home signal is standing clear, it seems probable that the train is just completing its traverse of the Worgret Jc.-Corfe section, but for some reason the Q (unlike the M7) is displaying no disc on the central lower lamp iron of its tender, as would be appropriate for a train between Wareham and Swanage. Might this be indicative of a trip working to the intermediate sidings at Furzebrook, or just a case of the train crew not being bothered to put the disc in place?
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Firstly Mike @Mike Walker . Another thank you for correcting the location. Doubtless if Tim had still been with us he'd have told me that his notes referred to "the Swanage Branch" and not necessarily Swanage itself.
Dave @Dave Holt - I understand the question but John @John Palmer has answered your question, chapter and verse. I remember the addition of vehicles from expresses at junctions on a number of SR branches including but not exclusively the Seaton and Lyme Regis branches. The formation with the M7 within the train was far from unknown. Thanks too, John, for your comments about MN route availability and confirming the location of the train at Poole. Interesting and helpful comments about the photo of the Q as well.
And Gary @cmax . I think any book of the black and white photos remains a way in the future. I really feel a need to get the colour photos on here - these are many and varied so will need some explanation before I start but some of the photos are outstanding as you'd expect. But especial thanks for your appreciation of a self imposed task which has given me enormous pleasure. I join you in thanking all the contributors for the additional comments and corrections which make this archive of much higher value than it would have been without.
An unidentified Standard Class 4 2-6-0 from the train en route to Poole and the Swanage Branch on 8th June 1962.
Tim was not so far down the Merchant Navy hauled train en route to Poole and Swanage for this photo on 8th June 1962. I believe the photo to be around Southampton. If so it was part of the journey I loved – we were nearly at the seaside!
Class U 2-6-0 31792 which we last saw in post #3983 at Templecombe was photographed here from the Waterloo to Poole and Swanage train, possibly at Southampton when taking water on 8th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Yeovil Town in February 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). WHTS report it was sold to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea who sold it on or more likely transferred it to Bird’s, Bynea as reported by the LCGB who also reported it as observed intact on 13th December 1964. BR Database advise a scrapping date of the same month.
Another photograph probably at Southampton on 8th June 1962 is of Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75068 which was previously in post #4358. It was new to Dover Marine in September 1955, then Bournemouth in June 1959, Eastleigh May 1961, Brighton December 1962, Stewarts Lane in April, Norwood Junction in September and Eastleigh again in December 1963 where it was withdrawn pretty much at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca, at the end of February 1968. (BR Database).
Brian
Dave @Dave Holt - I understand the question but John @John Palmer has answered your question, chapter and verse. I remember the addition of vehicles from expresses at junctions on a number of SR branches including but not exclusively the Seaton and Lyme Regis branches. The formation with the M7 within the train was far from unknown. Thanks too, John, for your comments about MN route availability and confirming the location of the train at Poole. Interesting and helpful comments about the photo of the Q as well.
And Gary @cmax . I think any book of the black and white photos remains a way in the future. I really feel a need to get the colour photos on here - these are many and varied so will need some explanation before I start but some of the photos are outstanding as you'd expect. But especial thanks for your appreciation of a self imposed task which has given me enormous pleasure. I join you in thanking all the contributors for the additional comments and corrections which make this archive of much higher value than it would have been without.
An unidentified Standard Class 4 2-6-0 from the train en route to Poole and the Swanage Branch on 8th June 1962.
Tim was not so far down the Merchant Navy hauled train en route to Poole and Swanage for this photo on 8th June 1962. I believe the photo to be around Southampton. If so it was part of the journey I loved – we were nearly at the seaside!
Class U 2-6-0 31792 which we last saw in post #3983 at Templecombe was photographed here from the Waterloo to Poole and Swanage train, possibly at Southampton when taking water on 8th June 1962. The loco was allocated to Yeovil Town in February 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1964. (SLS). WHTS report it was sold to Bird’s, Morriston, Swansea who sold it on or more likely transferred it to Bird’s, Bynea as reported by the LCGB who also reported it as observed intact on 13th December 1964. BR Database advise a scrapping date of the same month.
Another photograph probably at Southampton on 8th June 1962 is of Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75068 which was previously in post #4358. It was new to Dover Marine in September 1955, then Bournemouth in June 1959, Eastleigh May 1961, Brighton December 1962, Stewarts Lane in April, Norwood Junction in September and Eastleigh again in December 1963 where it was withdrawn pretty much at the end of Southern steam in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Bird’s, Risca, at the end of February 1968. (BR Database).
Brian
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AJC
Western Thunderer
A lovely selection. I’m pretty certain that the ‘near Southampton’ shot from the train is coming away from Redbridge looking towards the Totton bypass, with the tar works to the left, so probably from the same down train as previously.
The UID 76xxx is pretty obviously climbing the bank for the flyover at Worting Junction, so fortunate shot!
Not sure about 75068, it doesn’t look right for the country end of Southampton Central (the signals were on a big gantry), and certainly isn’t the city end (no footbridge, too many trees). The country end of Brockenhurst maybe?
Adam
The UID 76xxx is pretty obviously climbing the bank for the flyover at Worting Junction, so fortunate shot!
Not sure about 75068, it doesn’t look right for the country end of Southampton Central (the signals were on a big gantry), and certainly isn’t the city end (no footbridge, too many trees). The country end of Brockenhurst maybe?
Adam
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Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I would agree with Adam, a lovely selection to add to the Christmas cheer.
#993 The headcode on the Std 4 doesn't make any sense, Feltham to Brent via Richmond or Waterloo and Portsmouth Hbr via Eastleigh. Obviously its neither of those and since the picture was taken from the rear coach of a train and if my surmise on location is correct it is just south of Broadstone Junction. I am by no means certain of this but the topography feels right, correction welcome and probably John Palmer amongst others will have a better feel.
#994 Definitely leaving Redbridge, the signal is Redbridge Down Main Advance Starting with Totton Down Distant beneath it and Down Shunt Ahead to allow access for a reversing move into the down side sidings and Redbridge Wharf.
#995 Who knows however I suspect it might be at Bournemouth West.
#996 Which is where this one most definitely is, the signals confirm it.
Martin
#993 The headcode on the Std 4 doesn't make any sense, Feltham to Brent via Richmond or Waterloo and Portsmouth Hbr via Eastleigh. Obviously its neither of those and since the picture was taken from the rear coach of a train and if my surmise on location is correct it is just south of Broadstone Junction. I am by no means certain of this but the topography feels right, correction welcome and probably John Palmer amongst others will have a better feel.
#994 Definitely leaving Redbridge, the signal is Redbridge Down Main Advance Starting with Totton Down Distant beneath it and Down Shunt Ahead to allow access for a reversing move into the down side sidings and Redbridge Wharf.
#995 Who knows however I suspect it might be at Bournemouth West.
#996 Which is where this one most definitely is, the signals confirm it.
Martin
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cmax
Western Thunderer
Brian, you need to give yourself a big pat on the back, without you starting the thread, we wouldn't have a valuable collection Tim's photos of the quickly changing railway scene he recorded.
Thank You.
Gary
John Palmer
Western Thunderer
Took some time to find another picture of the water column in img995 but eventually located one at p.27 of “The District Controller's View” No.5 dealing with S&D Summer Saturday operations. This confirms that the column was at Bournemouth West, near the bridge carying the railway over Surrey Road South. The ballast store (if such it is) adjacent to the column and formed from perforated platework was a fairly distinctive feature of the Bournemouth West railway scene, there being another such adjacent to one of the bracket starters visible in img996.
My immediate reaction on seeing img993 was that it showed a train climbing the incline to the Battledown Flyover. It would be great to see an uncommon shot of a train on the Hamworthy Loop just south of Broadstone as Martin has suggested but sadly I don't think this can be the spot where this photograph was taken. The shadow of the locomotive can be clearly seen, along with the fireman (is he sporting a knotted hankie head covering?), meaning that this was a forward-facing shot. Were this picture to show the Standard 4 on an Up train climbing from Hamworthy to Broadstone, the train from which Tim took the picture would have to be descending from Broadstone to Holes Bay, and you'd expect the Up line from Holes Bay to be immediately adjacent. As that's not the case I'm still putting my money on Battledown.
If this is indeed the Battledown incline then it may explain the Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo via Eastleigh disc headcode as it would be consistent with a Portsmouth-Fareham-Eastleigh-Waterloo routing of the train.
My immediate reaction on seeing img993 was that it showed a train climbing the incline to the Battledown Flyover. It would be great to see an uncommon shot of a train on the Hamworthy Loop just south of Broadstone as Martin has suggested but sadly I don't think this can be the spot where this photograph was taken. The shadow of the locomotive can be clearly seen, along with the fireman (is he sporting a knotted hankie head covering?), meaning that this was a forward-facing shot. Were this picture to show the Standard 4 on an Up train climbing from Hamworthy to Broadstone, the train from which Tim took the picture would have to be descending from Broadstone to Holes Bay, and you'd expect the Up line from Holes Bay to be immediately adjacent. As that's not the case I'm still putting my money on Battledown.
If this is indeed the Battledown incline then it may explain the Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo via Eastleigh disc headcode as it would be consistent with a Portsmouth-Fareham-Eastleigh-Waterloo routing of the train.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Thank you John, I did feel my guess was awry and I probably was swayed by the Bournemouth West pics and assumed, oops.
Martin
Martin
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
Tim was not so far down the Merchant Navy hauled train en route to Poole and Swanage for this photo on 8th June 1962. I believe the photo to be around Southampton. If so it was part of the journey I loved – we were nearly at the seaside!
As noted by @Martin Shaw the train is crossing the River Test and Redbridge Channel viaducts after leaving Redbridge. However, I was taken by the Art-Deco road bridge in the background. After a quick bit of research this carries the Totton by-pass (now the A35) built in the 1930s as a single carriageway and turned into a dual carriageway during the late 1960s/early 1970s.
This screen grab from a 2017 Southampton Central - Weymouth cab ride shows the original structure is still there with new single lane carriageway grafted onto either side.
Original video is here
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
A thank you to several contributors for advice on locations here, Adam @AJC , Martin @Martin Shaw , John @John Palmer and Dave @Yorkshire Dave . And once more to Gary @cmax for your continuing enthusiasm.
B1 4-6-0 61200 on a Ferme Park to Peterborough freight train from the carriage window on 4th October 1962 with a Brush Type 2 alongside. The B1 was allocated to New England in May 1959 and Kings Cross in April 1960 where it was withdrawn on 29th December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s Great Bridge in February 1963. (BR Database).
This pair is the very last of Tim’s black and white images. Certainly far from the best photograph Tim took but it is appropriately of his favourite class of loco (by far) and at his favourite station - or maybe that was Hornsey. A4 60033 Seagull is at Kings Cross on 4th October 1962. The loco has been on here several times previously and it was, appropriately, a Kings Cross Top Shed engine from March 1948 until withdrawal at the end of December 1962. The final act was a return to Doncaster Works where it was cut up on 23rd January 1963.
We’ve been looking at Tim’s photos since 2nd October 2020. A remarkable collection and one which will be preserved with all the associated notes for future reference and eventually lodged with an archive. The Irish photos will go to the RPSI. I’ve been remarkably fortunate to have been given free access to these photos by Tim and after his death by his family. I hope I’ve done them justice.
In the next week or so I’ll be finalising all the additional info to go with the last few photos so that the archive data is as complete as I can make it. I’ll be back in the New Year with some colour photos. In the meantime thank you to all who have viewed the images from time to time or who have been with me from the beginning and special thanks to everyone who has added information.
Happy Christmas to all and a healthy and prosperous New Year.
Brian
B1 4-6-0 61200 on a Ferme Park to Peterborough freight train from the carriage window on 4th October 1962 with a Brush Type 2 alongside. The B1 was allocated to New England in May 1959 and Kings Cross in April 1960 where it was withdrawn on 29th December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s Great Bridge in February 1963. (BR Database).
This pair is the very last of Tim’s black and white images. Certainly far from the best photograph Tim took but it is appropriately of his favourite class of loco (by far) and at his favourite station - or maybe that was Hornsey. A4 60033 Seagull is at Kings Cross on 4th October 1962. The loco has been on here several times previously and it was, appropriately, a Kings Cross Top Shed engine from March 1948 until withdrawal at the end of December 1962. The final act was a return to Doncaster Works where it was cut up on 23rd January 1963.
We’ve been looking at Tim’s photos since 2nd October 2020. A remarkable collection and one which will be preserved with all the associated notes for future reference and eventually lodged with an archive. The Irish photos will go to the RPSI. I’ve been remarkably fortunate to have been given free access to these photos by Tim and after his death by his family. I hope I’ve done them justice.
In the next week or so I’ll be finalising all the additional info to go with the last few photos so that the archive data is as complete as I can make it. I’ll be back in the New Year with some colour photos. In the meantime thank you to all who have viewed the images from time to time or who have been with me from the beginning and special thanks to everyone who has added information.
Happy Christmas to all and a healthy and prosperous New Year.
Brian
gateman 49
Member
Brian,
I fully agree with the sentiments expressed by others.
I came across this thread by chance and it has that almost hypnotic appeal that certain books have. every time I looked I got drawn further and further in so thanks again to you and to the late Tim and his family.
I fully agree with the sentiments expressed by others.
I came across this thread by chance and it has that almost hypnotic appeal that certain books have. every time I looked I got drawn further and further in so thanks again to you and to the late Tim and his family.
Thank you for the time and effort this has taken.
A thoroughly enjoyable and informative read.
Malc
James Fibbens
Member
Brian,
As a lurker on this thread, just wanted to say thank you for showing us this remarkable collection (and by extension a postumuous thank you to Tim). Apart from the great specturm of locos it's also provided great insight into what the railway was really like in the 60s before everything changed - particularly important for those of us born too late to see it with our own eyes!
It's sad to think that there won't be much more coming - unless of course the colour collection is just as voluminous?!
Merry Christmas and happy new year!
James
As a lurker on this thread, just wanted to say thank you for showing us this remarkable collection (and by extension a postumuous thank you to Tim). Apart from the great specturm of locos it's also provided great insight into what the railway was really like in the 60s before everything changed - particularly important for those of us born too late to see it with our own eyes!
It's sad to think that there won't be much more coming - unless of course the colour collection is just as voluminous?!
Merry Christmas and happy new year!
James
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
This thread has brought back many happy memories to one who is old enough to have lived and watched the railways in World War 2, through nationalisation to the amalgam which is today's scene. Ony two words can simply and adequately sum it up - "Thank You".
Roger.
Roger.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Well, I promised I'd be back at the beginning of 2026 and I can't be much earlier than this. (Well, not after the morning after the night before...) All the black and white files are updated and complete so it's time to move on. And a Happy New Year to all on WT and especially the contributors to the information accompanying the photos.
I'm moved by the very kind comments on completion of the black and white files. I'm a bit of a fraud really as every minute spent on these photos has been a great joy, even though I've not been active in the workshop now for well over a year as a result.
We’ll start the colour files with some quite routine pictures just to get my hand in, as it were but they get more interesting as we proceed. Longer term viewers of these files will know that Tim visited Ireland a few times and we’ll start with image No 2 (No 1 is very similar but the signal has not cleared). There’ll be a lot of variety and jumping around with dates, subjects (including some buses) and locations but it keeps the juices flowing! Tim didn’t get in to colour photography until quite late in the steam scene but the photos he took before the end of steam are, in general, up to his normal high standard. These will appear – promise! - but I’m taking my normal scattergun approach so there are quite a few to precede the BR steam shots. In some cases this means – horror of horrors – blue diesels!
In scanning these slides I’ve found that more than a few show physical deterioration such as minor fungus attacks but fortunately they’ve been caught in good time to allow digital restoration, and I always retain an original version, defects and all, as well as the original slides in case future corrections are desirable.
Some of these colour pictures are wonderful, some less so but the major issue is that there are no notes at all to go with the vast majority of these slides. At least I had access to Tim’s original notes for most of the black and white photos which have been of some considerable help in starting the commentary. I’ll value any help with locations (and the spelling thereof for the European slides – Tim’s writing was rather as though a spider had walked across the page) and suggested dates and quite often the possible identification of the subject too. Also Tim used probably every film manufacturer so comparatively few slides have any processing date on them. Where that’s available it’ll be quoted. Not surprisingly most of the slides except for the Kodachrome show a level of colour fade. I’ve attempted to make colour corrections to keep them all uniform but I’m no colour grader and there is a distinct variation in hue.
Not all these photos will be to everyone’s taste. If you’ve stuck with me through the black and white days I encourage you to keep in touch with the thread as there will be some really nice colour shots to come.
However, on with the pictures!
These three are Irish and around 1980. The subject is GNR(I) 171 Slieve Gullion. You should expect more from this source. Although there is no indication of location for the first two a note on the slide mount advises the third to be at Castle Erne, Enniskillen. Maybe they were all shot at the same location.
Brian
I'm moved by the very kind comments on completion of the black and white files. I'm a bit of a fraud really as every minute spent on these photos has been a great joy, even though I've not been active in the workshop now for well over a year as a result.
We’ll start the colour files with some quite routine pictures just to get my hand in, as it were but they get more interesting as we proceed. Longer term viewers of these files will know that Tim visited Ireland a few times and we’ll start with image No 2 (No 1 is very similar but the signal has not cleared). There’ll be a lot of variety and jumping around with dates, subjects (including some buses) and locations but it keeps the juices flowing! Tim didn’t get in to colour photography until quite late in the steam scene but the photos he took before the end of steam are, in general, up to his normal high standard. These will appear – promise! - but I’m taking my normal scattergun approach so there are quite a few to precede the BR steam shots. In some cases this means – horror of horrors – blue diesels!
In scanning these slides I’ve found that more than a few show physical deterioration such as minor fungus attacks but fortunately they’ve been caught in good time to allow digital restoration, and I always retain an original version, defects and all, as well as the original slides in case future corrections are desirable.
Some of these colour pictures are wonderful, some less so but the major issue is that there are no notes at all to go with the vast majority of these slides. At least I had access to Tim’s original notes for most of the black and white photos which have been of some considerable help in starting the commentary. I’ll value any help with locations (and the spelling thereof for the European slides – Tim’s writing was rather as though a spider had walked across the page) and suggested dates and quite often the possible identification of the subject too. Also Tim used probably every film manufacturer so comparatively few slides have any processing date on them. Where that’s available it’ll be quoted. Not surprisingly most of the slides except for the Kodachrome show a level of colour fade. I’ve attempted to make colour corrections to keep them all uniform but I’m no colour grader and there is a distinct variation in hue.
Not all these photos will be to everyone’s taste. If you’ve stuck with me through the black and white days I encourage you to keep in touch with the thread as there will be some really nice colour shots to come.
However, on with the pictures!
These three are Irish and around 1980. The subject is GNR(I) 171 Slieve Gullion. You should expect more from this source. Although there is no indication of location for the first two a note on the slide mount advises the third to be at Castle Erne, Enniskillen. Maybe they were all shot at the same location.
Brian
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you for sticking with me on this. As I said, not everything will hit the button but clearly there remains an interest in Tim's photos, even when they are not main stream.
Six photos here of Carnforth and the Cumbrian Coast Express with Lord Nelson 850 at some time around 1980. The first three are probably Carnforth with locos on shed. I don’t recognise the loco or coach in the first one but the second and third look as though Lord Nelson, Flying Scotsman and an unidentified Jubilee are on show. For the history of Lord Nelson since preservation see: 30850 Lord Nelson (SR E850, SR 850 & BR 30850) Flying Scotsman is so well known and has appeared so many times that I’ll not add any reference.
I can't identify the locations of the fourth, fifth sixth or seventh photos even having travelled the route several times but hopefully one of our contributors will be able to fill in the gaps.
In the same box of slides as the six photos above identified as 1980, are some of the Woodhead Route but starting with one of Manchester Victoria Station and then two at unidentified locations.
Brian
Six photos here of Carnforth and the Cumbrian Coast Express with Lord Nelson 850 at some time around 1980. The first three are probably Carnforth with locos on shed. I don’t recognise the loco or coach in the first one but the second and third look as though Lord Nelson, Flying Scotsman and an unidentified Jubilee are on show. For the history of Lord Nelson since preservation see: 30850 Lord Nelson (SR E850, SR 850 & BR 30850) Flying Scotsman is so well known and has appeared so many times that I’ll not add any reference.
I can't identify the locations of the fourth, fifth sixth or seventh photos even having travelled the route several times but hopefully one of our contributors will be able to fill in the gaps.
In the same box of slides as the six photos above identified as 1980, are some of the Woodhead Route but starting with one of Manchester Victoria Station and then two at unidentified locations.
Brian