Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Dog Star]

Brian (@oldravendale),

I am suspicious of "Cricklewood" for 73000 because of the coach beside the loco... that looks like the brake end of a GCR Robinson coach and if so I am not sure why such a clean specimen might be at Cricklewood circa 1960s.

Adrian (@Crimson Rambler),

With respect, I suggest that your post is mis-leading. I have just refreshed my memory by re-reading the article from Midland Record No.13 and that text makes clear that there were two (maybe more) test trains. A test train of vacuum-fitted mineral wagons was made available by the end of 1951 whilst the air-braked train was completed circa 1953. So the test train with 73000/1 in your photo shows a vacuum brake test and would not have included the wagon(s) as depicted in your photo.

regards, Graham

subsequently.... research into the "end elevation" of GCR braks coaches has convinced me that the similarity between GCR stock and the coach in Brian's photo is too little to be a challenge to the given location of the photo as Cricklewood.

 

[daifly]

In 1952, both 73000/1 were shedded at Derby (17A) as the plate on 73001 shows. There is little doubt that 73000 in Tim’s photo was shedded at Woodford Halse (1G) in 1964.
Dave

 

[JimG]

George Mellor used an illustration of 73001 on the front of his catalogue in the late 1950s. I used "73001" as my nom de plume in my school magazine, prompted by this illustration.

Jim.

 

[AJC]

EXPERIMENTAL
xxxxxxxxx WAGON
RETURN EMPTY TO
XXXXX XXXXX LMR
Best my eyes can do!
Dave

I suspect it's one of these: BR and Privatised Companies | PMB0642 - 16 ton vacuum-braked mineral wagon No. B557014 fitted with experimental auto coupler at Cricklewood loco sidings 26/5/63 (with an experimental auto-coupler, from Dowty, I think). The style of painting and lettering matches, as does the 8 shoe brake. I'm not sure, but I think all the Westinghouse conversions were on Morton-fitted wagons, the buffers certainly are, but @hrmspaul will have the information closer to his mind than I do to mine.

Adam

 

[Crimson Rambler]

Sorry if I got it wrong and misled anyone!

Hangs head in shame.


Crimson Rambler

 

[oldravendale]

Tomorrow I'll sort some more photos. However, there's some items of discussion here which we can pick up now.

Rob and Dave - I've reviewed the higher def scans and can't read anything on the wagon better than you have, Dave. The original neg may give a better clue to the info on the wagon side but it'll be tough to find it as cataloguing is awaiting completion of scanning all these negs.

Crimson Rambler. I'm not sure how your info conflicts with the data attached to the photo of 73000. The loco went to Woodford Halse when it would have received the new shed plate in 1962 so your photo is clearly quite a bit earlier than this. There's little enough to confirm the shed but the date will be post 1962 but prior to January 1965 when it moved to Oxley. Just seen your later message, Graham. Your thoughts valued as they engender further discussion and research.

Graham. The lamp visible in the photo doesn't look GCR/ER in origin so it's probably not Woodford Halse. It looks Midland Region to me, but others may have more and better info. I have nothing to guide us to an alternative to the one suggested.

Dave. Allocation as you suggest is agreed.

Interesting use of 73001 by GEM, Jim. And a lovely memory - thanks.

Adam - splendid bit of stuff! However, the 1963 and Cricklewood location suggests that the location given by Tim is the right one.

All in all lots of lovely comments. Keep 'em coming chaps.

Brian

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I am suspicious of "Cricklewood" for 73000 because of the coach beside the loco... that looks like the brake end of a GCR Robinson coach and if so I am not sure why such a clean specimen might be at Cricklewood circa 1960s.

Could period 1 ex LMS brake coach.

 

[Overseer]

Could period 1 ex LMS brake coach.

I agree, first thought on seeing the photo was LMS Dia 1704A Brake composite, period 1 rebuilt with period 3 steel sides.

This is probably the lettering on the 16T mineral.


Also interesting to see that the two 16T steel mineral wagons in the Jinty photo are both pre Nationalisation. I would have expected at least 1 to be a diag 1/108 in 1964.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for the additional stuff, Dave and Fraser. Although I have nothing definitive I'm going for the LMS vehicle in that shot of 73000 - in fact, based on the balance of probabilities I'm retaining the date and location as Tim has recorded them.

Today we'll stay at Cricklewood but this time it's one of the ex-Crosti 9F 2-10-0s. Just to whet your appetites there's a proper Crosti - in fact possibly more than one - in later shots but you'll have to settle for this one at the moment. So, again, "Cricklewood 1964." 92023 carries the 15c shed plate of Kettering to which the loco had belonged since August 1963. It moved on to Carlisle Kingmoor in May 1964 so this was probably taken on the same date as the photo of 61144, early in the year. Carlisle moved it on to Birkenhead Mollington Street in July 1965. Records show withdrawal from Speke Junction in November 1967 but no transfer to the shed, so whether it was "away from home" when it failed and was immediately withdrawn we'll probably never know. It met its Waterloo at Campbells, Airdrie, in April 1968.



Brian

 

[simond]

I was 7 in 1965 and grew up in Birkenhead

I remember the Summers wagons and the massive cranes for unloading the iron ore but I have no clear memory of the 9Fs. Shame.

I even built an Airfix kit one, sometime around that time...

 

[LarryG]

One of these ex.Crosti's was the very last steam loco I saw in North Wales in the steam-era clanking downgrade towards Abergele in 1967. It had worked the morning Mold Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog goods. But when 'control' realised it was a 2-10-0, the telegraph buzzed with words to the effect that in no circumstances was it to be allowed onto the Conwy Valley branch!

 

[adrian]

Although I have nothing definitive I'm going for the LMS vehicle in that shot of 73000 - in fact, based on the balance of probabilities I'm retaining the date and location as Tim has recorded them.

I can't say one way or the other as I don't know enough details of the different sheds. Also I don't know whether it influences the location and it hasn't been mentioned yet but I presume from the lack of valve gear and motion on 73000 it was undergoing some sort of service or repair at the time of the photo.

 

[Dog Star]

Graham. The lamp visible in the photo doesn't look GCR/ER in origin so it's probably not Woodford Halse. It looks Midland Region to me, but others may have more and better info. I have nothing to guide us to an alternative to the one suggested.

Brian (@oldravendale),

After looking at several photos of GCR brake coaches (Steve Banks's website) I conclude that my suggestion regarding a GCR carriage next to loco no. 73000 is not correct.

regards, Graham

 

[LarryG]

Coach end beside 73000 is a standard LMS Period One vehicle with matchboard ends. Probably no longer in passenger use seeing as electrical connections are absent.

 

[oldravendale]

Thanks for additional thoughts, particularly Larry - I'm visualising the situation!

Adrian - Hawkeyes has done it again! I'd not even noticed that the valve gear is missing. I'm comfortable to stick with Cricklewood for all three of those photos, though, for a combination of reasons.

Graham - That's helpful insofar as we possibly now have some (uncontested) thoughts on the identification of that coach.

I'm still appreciating the "Likes" chaps, as is Tim.

I'm going to have to take a break from this shortly so that I can update all the additional info and connect it to the appropriate photos. It shouldn't take too long, and then I'll be back. In the meantime three photos, one rather less than wonderful but with some interesting detail which itself forms a separate photo.

This is "Willesden 1964". The subject is obviously Princess Coronation 46240, City of Coventry and the lining suggests to me that it's in maroon livery, as does the subtle difference in shade between the smokebox and boiler. There's no shedplate to confirm the allocation, although the loco was allocated to Willesden up to the end of August 1964 when it went to Edge Hill. Despite its clean and tidy appearance this loco had only a short time of service left as it was withdrawn in October 1964 and went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was disposed of in December.



In the background of the above photo is this little gem.



And finally for today, Tim has identified this as "Cricklewood 1964." It's not, though - it's clearly Southall although there is no reason to question the date. Southall was never known for its allocation of Castles, nor was it usually used to service them. Nonetheless, 7014 Caerhays Castle looks in decent nick with even a full set of name and number plates. This also carries no shed plate but was possibly allocated to Oxley at the time although it moved to Tyseley in June 1964 and was withdrawn in February 1965. By May the same year it had been scrapped at Cashmore's Great Bridge.



Brian

 

[AJC]

Nice shots - the wagon behind 'Coventry is interesting for lots of reasons. It's a wooden-framed and bodied five plank, probably an LMS dia. 1666 (could be an ex-private trader five plank but there were so many of the LMS wagons it's more likely to be one of those), but what makes it interesting is the very tidy 'one journey only loco coal' lettering. The 'COND' and date (28/5/63) as well suggests that it had been hanging around Willesden since that 'one journey' round about a year earlier. Nice.

Adam

 

[daifly]

The remaining allocoation of Old Oak Common steam locos was moved to Southall from March 1964 to allow OOC to be converted to a diesel depot which might account for the presence of large passenger classes at Southall as servicing facilities will presumably also have been removed. 6937 Conyngham Hall (a Didcot loco at the time) is visible in the background of the last photo.
Dave

 

[simond]

The Castle may have been in decent nick, but it’s utterly filthy, judging by the cleaned areas around the number plate and route disc, and the crown cat & cog on the tender.

a magnificent beast.

 

[oldravendale]

I've at last caught up with adding all these wonderful comments to the photos. Thanks again. I've talked to Tim today and he's in great form. I've read him back some of your comments and he's very pleased that he passed these negatives on to me, and the value that is being placed on them.

For today, though, a few pictures which we can probably skip through quite quickly, because the history of "Flying Scotsman" has, in fairness, been done to death. So here is the loco, in Old Oak Common roundhouse in 1964.



And another loco well known and which really needs no further explanation. This is 9F 92220 Evening Star at Old Oak although I don't have any information on the date.



The next post will be GWR locos inside the roundhouse at Old Oak, so more normal fare.

Brian

 

[oldravendale]

We're back on familiar territory now, with three shots all entitled "Old Oak MPD." The first two are undated and that light fog at the bottom of the frame suggests both were taken on the same day, but probably not the same day as the final shot. None of these is in the top quartile of Tim's photos but nevertheless are worth a look.

The first is Castle 7029 Clun Castle. Its history is well known as it's now in preservation but the potted version is this: In 1962 it moved from Newton Abbot to Old Oak Common and in October 1964 to Gloucester Horton Road. It was withdrawn at the very end of 1965 from whence it went straight in to preservation. I have a photo of it in decent condition at Southall in May 1965 with no shed plate. On June 11th it became the last steam loco out of Paddington (in regular service) so may have been at Southall in preparation.



This was a rarity at Old Oak, although we saw a very occasional Manor in the last knockings of steam. This is 7813, Freshford Manor again without a shed plate. It was at Reading in 1962, then Swindon, Gloucester Horton Road and finally Didcot in March 1965 from where it was withdrawn in May the same year. It was scrapped in the following July at Birds Morriston.



Finally, and identified as 1964, this is Clun Castle again. The loco carries an 81A, Old Oak, shed plate so this makes the photo prior to October when it moved to Gloucester. In fact I can be fairly certain that this was on a different occasion to the first shot, as in that the loco is facing the turntable, and in this one is facing away.



Brian