Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[oldravendale]

Hello Paul @hrmspaul and thanks for your question about the L1 and L1s in general. Thanks too for the further comments @40057 and Tony @76043 . For myself I believe it was a combination of issues, probably the rapidly changing environment meaning that their raison d'etre disappeared and that they weren't terribly good engines so other, more successful if older designs perpetuated. It'd be good to have a definitive and referenced reason though.

As for the breakdown train, Paul, regrettably (as with most of us at the time) Tim's interests were almost entirely loco-centric so I have nothing more on the breakdown train. As for the comments by others about the stability of pannier tanks I couldn't possibly comment. I remember seeing a film taken with a telephoto lens many years ago of a pannier on a local at Old Oak, probably a stand-in for a rostered 61XX tank, and it was bouncing about all over the place - it appeared that there was a real risk it'd throw itself off the track!

812 Class 0-6-0 57614 on a coal train in sidings at Ayr Yards on 14th September 1961 and another photo at the same time and in the same place is in post #1710. This loco was at shedded at Ayr at the time and was withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1962. (BR Database). It was scrapped at Arnott Young, Troon, during February 1964. (BR Database, Rail UK and WHTS which also records it being sighted in store at Ayr on several occasions through 1963 and also at Arnott Young in January 1964).



Now known to be 14th September 1961 and previously in post #88 this is 2P 55189 at Carstairs and one of Tim’s “Station Pilots”. It was allocated to Carstairs in September 1960 and withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It is in preservation at the Bo'ness and Kinneil Railway - see 55189 (CR 419, LMS 15189 & BR 55189)



I commented in post #1677 that this is one loco I was truly hoping Tim had photographed while in Scotland - it was something of a Holy Grail for those of us living in the South East. It's Royal Scot 46102, Black Watch and is photographed here probably at Carstairs on 14th September 1961. It was alleged to have made a trip south just once although I've never seen first hand confirmation that this ever took place. It was a Polmadie engine for its entire life and BR Database shows it to have been withdrawn from there on 29th December 1962. Rail UK agrees. However the SLS advises that it was transferred to Corkerhill on 19th November 1962. It was certainly recorded in store at Corkerhill on 14th April 1963. Ultimately it went to J McWilliams at Shettleston where it was despatched by the end of May 1964.



Jubilee 45673 Keppel carrying a 67A Corkerhill shed plate believed to be at Carstairs on 14th September 1961. It was allocated to Corkerhill in June 1960 and withdrawn on 29th December 1962. (SLS). However, by 31st August 1962 it was in store and then went to Campbell’s, Shieldhall (RO) where it was scrapped in December 1963. (BR Database).

Edit: Keppel is not at Carstairs which didn’t have canopies like that. This is possibly Paisley Gilmour street but there is an arched roof way in the background. I’m sure it isn’t St Enoch, the platforms were on a curve, so could it be Edinburgh Princes Street?

A further comment that 45673 is possibly at St Enoch, possibly some of the southern platforms. You can see the arch in the background above the canopies, and the 'braces' between canopies also matches.



Brian

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

I raked around the railways of Ayr in my youth but cannot identify where 57614 is. The only diamond crossing I can think of is on the line to the harbour where it crosses the lines into the old station/goods depot but there was no platforms near the crossing. I will have to dig out the maps when I get home.

The engine was a regular on the ‘twins’ and I saw her frequently on that turn always worked smokebox uphill with empties and tender first back with fulls. There is a van, possibly having delivered supplies/tools to the pit, between the minerals and engine so it looks to me like a train coming from one of the many pits in Ayrshire.

Keppel is not at Carstairs which didn’t have canopies like that. My first impression was Paisley Gilmour street but there is an arched roof way in the background. I’m sure it isn’t St Enoch, the platforms were on a curve, so could it be Edinburgh Princes Street?

Ian.

 

[Eastsidepilot]

I raked around the railways of Ayr in my youth but cannot identify where 57614 is. The only diamond crossing I can think of is on the line to the harbour where it crosses the lines into the old station/goods depot but there was no platforms near the crossing. I will have to dig out the maps when I get home.

The engine was a regular on the ‘twins’ and I saw her frequently on that turn always worked smokebox uphill with empties and tender first back with fulls. There is a van, possibly having delivered supplies/tools to the pit, between the minerals and engine so it looks to me like a train coming from one of the many pits in Ayrshire.

Keppel is not at Carstairs which didn’t have canopies like that. My first impression was Paisley Gilmour street but there is an arched roof way in the background. I’m sure it isn’t St Enoch, the platforms were on a curve, so could it be Edinburgh Princes Street?

Ian.

Kilmarnock, Ian ?

Col.

 

[Culreoch]

I raked around the railways of Ayr in my youth but cannot identify where 57614 is. The only diamond crossing I can think of is on the line to the harbour where it crosses the lines into the old station/goods depot but there was no platforms near the crossing. I will have to dig out the maps when I get home.


Ian.

I don't think it's 57614 pictured here, on grounds the photos in post 1710 earlier show a different chimney and no coal rails on the tender. I don't recognise the location either though.

45673 is at St Enoch I reckon, possibly some of the southern platforms. You can see the arch in the background above the canopies, and the 'braces' between canopies also matches. Could really do with a 67A Jubilee like that in model form....

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Ian @Ian@StEnochs for your suggestions there, and to Col @Eastsidepilot too. I'll add to the available data. As indeed I will for the query raised by @Culreoch . At this distance in time all I have to go on are Tim's notes but it appears that your comments are entirely justified. Nonetheless a nice "everyday" picture but we'll have to settle for the loco as "unidentified".

An unidentified Crab 2-6-0 and Black 5 on a mineral train at an unknown location, unlikely but possibly Carstairs – more likely a Glasgow outer suburban line on 14th September 1961.

Edit: Now confirmed to be Newton-on-Ayr



Standard Class 4 2-6-4T 80111 on 14th September 1961 at Newton-on-Ayr and probably taken from the footbridge. BR Database advises that 80111 was allocated to Hurlford from June/July 1961 and went to Beattock in April/May 1966 where it was withdrawn at the end of November the same year. It was scrapped at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap (Wishaw) in February 1967.



Five pictures featuring 43XX 2-6-0 5380 at Old Oak Common in May 1963. In the second photo is 57XX pannier tank 9755 seen previously having fallen off the p-way and being re-railed. The 43XX was allocated to Didcot as long ago as June 1947 (BR Database) and went in to store in June 1963 being withdrawn in September. (SLS). It went to Cashmore’s, Newport for disposal (RO) although there’s a suggestion that it went to Cooper’s Metals, Sharpness on 31st December 1963. (WHTS). However, this must be considered doubtful as WHTS advises it was in store at Southall between September 1963 and May 1964 and was then seen at Swindon Works Stock Shed Yard in June while in transit to South Wales.












Brian

 

[40057]

I am pretty sure the first two photos are Newton-on-Ayr.

Martin

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

I am pretty sure the first two photos are Newton-on-Ayr.

Martin

Yes these are at Newton-on-Ayr.

The first looking South with the signal for the Junction for the Mauchline line which is just through ‘Tams Brig’ hidden by the footstep of the pedestrian bridge

The second view looks north with the extensive sidings of Falkland yard visible. This view hasn’t changed much except added catenary, the station building is still there but no longer in railway use, the station is still open but unmanned. The track in the yard is very overgrown and has seen little use since the import of coal ceased.

Ian.

 

[oldravendale]

Well, after two months I'm up to date with stuff outside Western Thunder. Hope you've missed me! I'll still be missing from time to time as I have a Planning Application to get in, finish a web site update, help push a 12"/ft loco over the finish line etc etc... However, what we do here is look at some photos so here we go again.

You've been waiting a while for thanks to your last comments, Martin and Ian, but I'm very grateful for your confirmation of the location of those photos. Now included!

Hall 5979 Cruckton Hall possibly on empty stock at Old Oak Common in December 1964 seen previously in posts #1821 and #4037. It had been a Reading engine since November 1948, Gloucester Horton Road in April 1963 and ended up at Worcester in September 1964 where it was withdrawn in the following November. (SLS). Rail UK and WHTS report it then went to R S Hayes at Bridgend and was broken up by April 1965 - WHTS report it as having been observed there at the end of February 1965 and as being stored at Worcester in November 1964.



Only two today because the info about the next photo is taking up too much space!

Previously in post #2273 this is 61XX 2-6-2T 6108 and judging by the brake van probably on a freight – maybe even loco coal - at Old Oak Common in December 1964. The SLS record this at Cardiff Canton between October 1960 and September 1964 when it moved to Oxford where it was withdrawn in August 1965. The Cardiff allocation is most unlikely in March 1963 if it was seen at work in London and I suspect that the SLS info is transposed from another engine. In fact the Locoshed Book for November/December 1959 shows the allocation as Slough (the SLS says Old Oak Common) and the volume for May/June 1964 shows the allocation as Southall. I reckon the Locoshed Books are confirming that this loco was , broadly speaking, London based for the whole period. Rail UK agrees it was withdrawn from Oxford in August 1965 and then went to Bird's, Bynea, where it was scrapped by the end of November 1965. This agrees with the entries in WHTS.

A combination of investigations by Dave @daifly, Simon @SimonT and my own advises:

The WR Allocation books show 6108 was based as follows.
1957, 1958. Slough,
4-12 Nov 59 Didcot
Dec 59 OOC
5 Jul 60 Whitland
13 Sep 60 Radyr
Oct 61 Overhaul, poss Wolv (It is very indistinct)
7 Nov 61 Didcot
19 Dec 61 to Dec 63 Southall.
No further records.
Radyr is a very strange allocation, well Whitland isn't much better!

An undated Blencowe photo of 6108 at Radyr and it has the lion & wheel logo. It has an 88B shed plate visible which Radyr became in September 1960. It was seen on a shed bash at Radyr in July 1961 with an 88B shedplate. 6108 was seen at Caerphilly works in Oct 61 and Southall in Feb 63 by which time it had acquired the later logo. I suspect that it was Southall allocated when the photo was taken.

Currently there is no evidence that any 61XX was attached to Cardiff Canton in the period from October 1960 to September 1964. In fact the shed closed on 10th September 1962 so any suggestion of that allocation is is spurious. The sightings go as follows:

6 April 1958. Slough. 81B shed plate.
4 October 1959. Slough. 81B shed plate.
There's no record of it being seen at Didcot in November 1959 but it appears that the allocation only lasted ten days. I can't find any record of it at Old Oak in December 1959 either, possibly again because the allocation period was so short.
23 July 1961. Radyr. 88B shed plate. (as recorded by Dave).
I can't locate any first hand sitings at Southall in February 1962
21 October 1962. Southall. A query against the 81C shed plate maybe because the loco wasn't carrying one.
17 March 1963. Southall. Still no confirmation of a shed plate.
12 January 1964. Southall. 81C confirmed.
27 September 1964. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
28 March 1965. Oxford. 81F shed plate.
Oxford closed 3 January 1966 and 6108 was not among the engines withdrawn and stored there on 9 January. The record of it being scrapped in November 1965 therefore fits quite nicely.

There's a reference to a 61XX being on the allocation of Whitland on 28 June 1958 although the number is not confirmed.
However 6114 was noted there and carrying an 87H plate on 22 October 1961. It was also noted as allocated around this period to Severn Tunnel Junction and Landore so 6114 is likely to be the 61XX allocated to Whitland in 1958.

6114: 1957 starts with it allocated to Ebbw Junction. 24 July it goes into Caerphilly Works and 20 Sep sees it back at Ebbw Junction. At some point in Dec it goes to Seven Tunnel Junction. On 22 October 1958 it goes to Reading. It goes into Caerphilly Works on 11 Dec 1959. On 18 Jan 1960 it moves back to Llandore where it remains until 14 Oct when it goes to Caerphilly running shed. 25 November sees it back to Llandore. It moves to Whitland on 13 Jun 1961. On 27 Feb 1962 it moved to Seven Tunnel Junction followed by a move to Carmathen on 22 May. Finally into store at Wolverhampton 10 Nov.

Ebbw Junction supplied some of the locos that worked the Eastern Valleys and thus 6114 could have worked to Aberbeeg and Ebbw Vale.

The best explanation I can come up with for a 61 at Whitland in 1959 is a running in turn from Caerphilly works, there just aren't any allocations. Choose from 6102, 6120, 6147, 6160.



Brian

 

[simond]

Good to see you back, Brian.

I hope your planning application is simpler than mine was…

love the tanner oner, great photo.

 

[daifly]

Currently there is no evidence that any 61XX was attached to Cardiff Canton in the period from October 1960 to September 1964. In fact the shed closed on 10th September 1962 so any suggestion of that allocation is is spurious. The sightings go as follows:

Brian

Although not necessarily allocated to Canton, 61xxs were seen at Canton in that period. They may have been in transit from Caerphilly works back to their home depot - both locos are in very clean (newly painted?) condition.

6115 at Canton 19Nov61 (recorded in Caerphilly works 29Oct61 BRDatabase)


and 6117 at the same position at Canton Mar62.


BRDatabase listings don't always tell the full story though. Here's 6145 at Cardiff General 16Jun52 when allocated to Reading. It looks ex-works but is carrying a local 'target' disc suggesting that it is employed on a local duty.


Dave

 

[David B]

I’m so glad you’re back Brian - yes, you’ve been missed.

David

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for expanding further the info about the 61XXs and Cardiff, Dave @daifly . Extra data carefully filed away. Thanks for the welcome back Simon @simond and David @David B . I'm on the verge of simply giving up on the planning app, Simon.... It's rather more boring than watching paint dry. I'll try to keep the photos flowing although there will be some inevitable interruptions.

We're back at a couple of Tim's favourite haunts now. I'm finding it difficult to choose the best framing for the first photo which comes from a 2 1/4 square neg so here are both.

This is 43XX 2-6-0 No 6363 which was previously in post #861. Here it heads a parcels train past Old Oak in December 1963. It was at Didcot from October 1960, in store there from March to May and in June 1964 moved to Taunton from where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). It went to Birds Morriston for dismantling which occurred in January 1965 according to RailUK but was sold on to G Cohen at Morriston (WHTS) where it was seen intact on 3rd January 1965. (LCGB).





Unnamed Britannia 70047 on an up Liverpool train at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. The loco was allocated to Crewe North from November 1959, Holyhead August 1960, Willesden July, Carlisle Kingmoor in August and back to Willesden in November 1961, Aston March 1962, Willesden again in January and back to Holyhead in February 1964, then Oxley in July and Banbury in October 1965 before finally arriving at Carlisle Kingmoor again in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. It was scrapped in December the same year at Campbell’s, Airdrie.



8F 48170 on an up freight at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. This was a Nottingham engine from at least January 1948 (BR Database) and loaned to Wellingborough in December 1955, returned to Nottingham later the same month, then Toton in October 1963, Derby May 1964 who loaned it to Colwick in January 1966 where it was formally allocated a week later before going to Stockport Edgeley in November the same year and finally Patricroft in May 1968 where it was withdrawn in June. (SLS). It was scrapped at Drapers, Hull (RO) on 30th December 1968. (WHTS).



4F 0-6-0 44348 on a van train at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960 and printed for Tim in his “Parcels Traffic” series. The 4F was a Watford engine from October 1957, then Bescot in June 1962, Springs Branch, Wigan in September 1963 and Workington in April 1964 where it was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Connel’s, Calder, Coatbridge (RO) in January 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[simond]

Two applications and an appeal.

I think I’m quoting the appeal decision correctly in saying “there was no valid reason for refusal” which was my thought exactly when the dozy officer refused it for the second time.

now we just need the builders to get on with it.…

good luck!
Simon

 

[David B]

A 4F on the Up Fast of the WCML? The exhaust suggests it’s trying to get a move on, but (as someone who used to watch a procession of later generation expresses sweeping round those Bushey curves in the 1980s and 1990s), it looks very out of place. Any idea why it might have been sent main line? Or were such things commonplace but rarely recorded by other photographers? Either way it’s a lovely photo.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Unnamed Britannia 70047 on an up Liverpool train at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. The loco was allocated to Crewe North from November 1959, Holyhead August 1960, Willesden July, Carlisle Kingmoor in August and back to Willesden in November 1961, Aston March 1962, Willesden again in January and back to Holyhead in February 1964, then Oxley in July and Banbury in October 1965 before finally arriving at Carlisle Kingmoor again in January 1966 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. It was scrapped in December the same year at Campbell’s, Airdrie.

Not forgetting the Watford-Euston or Broad Street electric service on the left. This is one of the BR 1957-59 Eastleigh built (on Ashford built underframes) class 501 three car units which at this date do not have the lower half yellow warning panel on the cab fronts.

These BR(M) units differed from the BR(S) EPB units as the motor and trailer cars were on 57' underframes rather the 64' underframes common to the BR(S) and Tyneside EPBs.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A 4F on the Up Fast of the WCML? The exhaust suggests it’s trying to get a move on, but (as someone who used to watch a procession of later generation expresses sweeping round those Bushey curves in the 1980s and 1990s), it looks very out of place. Any idea why it might have been sent main line? Or were such things commonplace but rarely recorded by other photographers? Either way it’s a lovely photo.

Could be routed on the fast line for any reason but my guess it was timetabled to do so as the shadows suggest mid-day when there is likely to be a lull in fast traffic. Of course it may be a substitute loco in place of the usual one and as you have noted it may have well be commonplace but rarely recorded. It also doesn't appear to be displaying a headcode.

Without checking or having access to a 1960 LMR passenger timetable I'm not sure expresses in this period operated on a regular interval basis as we see today. Most, then, appeared to depart Euston between 8 and 11 in the morning or arrive between 3 and 7 in the afternoon/evening which would provide a mid-day lull in fast traffic. Regular interval expresses may have been introduced after electrification with the decrease in some journey times.

 

[AJC]

Of course it may be a substitute loco in place of the usual one and as you have noted it may have well be commonplace but rarely recorded. It also doesn't appear to be displaying a headcode.

The lamps (bottom centre, bottom right) are there - express freight, what you’d expect - but the first is hidden by the vac’ pipe, and the second by the graininess of the image. I think they’re also either filthy or painted black.

Quite an interesting formation, too with the constituent bits, a set of vans, followed by a set of containers, split by what looks very like an unfitted high (or one covered in clay dust or similar).

Adam

 

[oldravendale]

I'm hijacking my own thread here, just to say to Simon @simond that the Planning App is complicated by the fact that we live in a conservation area. All we want to do is widen the drive entrance but the Council don't seem to know whether that's allowable or not so I suspect that, as in your case, there's no valid reason for refusal! It would have been easier to just do the job and apologise if someone tells us we've done wrong - I'd even be willing to reinstate the original layout if it was deemed necessary.

Anyway, that's enough of that, and an embargo on any more discussion about the matter.

The 4F on the up fast, @David B may be as suggested by Dave @Yorkshire Dave simply a convenient pathway allowing for time of day and traffic demands. As Adam @AJC points out (and I'd not noted previously) The lamp positions propose an express freight. Thanks also for yours on the vehicles in the train.

Dave @Yorkshire Dave - I'd not noticed the Class 501 stock in the photo of the Britannia so thank you for the mention.

Seen previously in post #1547 here's original un-named Patriot 45551 picking up water at what appears to be a relatively slow speed at Bushey Troughs on a down fitted and mixed freight on 15th July 1960. The presence of the two cars which used to be supplied for the disabled is a period piece in itself. At some time in the five weeks ending 30th July 1960 the loco moved from Camden where it had been since late June/early July to Willesden but at the beginning of July 1961 was transferred to Edge Hill. It was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). Disposal took place at Crewe Works in October. (Rail UK).



Jubilee 45704, Leviathan (didn't the Jubs have wonderful names?) complete with Fowler tender (which, IMHO didn't suit the loco at all). We last saw this in post #911. It was a Camden engine in June/July 1960 and moved to Aston in the following September and then Willesden in December. It went to Rugby in January/February 1961 and finally Crewe North engine in July 1963 and remained there until withdrawal in January 1965 (SLS) thence to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which occurred in April of the same year. (BR Database).



Original Patriot 45520 Llandudno on a down Northampton train clearly taking water at speed at Bushey Troughs on 15th July 1960. Wo betide any enthusiast with their head out of the window or even a window open! The loco was a Longsight engine from October 1955 and moved to Edge Hill in December 1960 where it was withdrawn in May 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in June 1962 (BR Database) at Crewe Works where it was seen in the Works Sidings/Yard on 20th May 1962 (RO) and also at an unspecified location within the works on 17th June (WHTS). I notice a group of men on the extreme left of the picture who appear to be examining either the p-way or the troughs. I thought for a while that the slow lines may have been out of use for a period explaining the 4F on the fast lines but that's clearly not the case as shown by the picture above.



V2 60975 on a down train at Holloway on the 6.32 York Parcels in 1962-1963. It had been a York North engine since new in September 1943 (BR Database) and was withdrawn on 25th May 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Swindon Works in August 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

Seen previously in posts #2160, #2180 and #2250 this photo is at an unspecified date in 1962-1963 and is of A4 60010 Dominion of Canada at Kings Cross with another unidentified A4 at an adjacent platform in the second photo. 60010 was a Kings Cross engine from October 1957 and moved to New England in June 1963. The overall external condition suggests that it had already made the move to New England, known at the time for failing to clean their charges. It then moved to Aberdeen Ferryhill in November where it was withdrawn at the end of May 1965. (SLS). It went in to preservation at Delson, Montreal. (SLS). 60010 Dominion of Canada (LNER 4489, LNER 591, LNER 10 & BR 60010)





A4 60024 Kingfisher last in post #4927 and here at Kings Cross at some time around 1962-1963. It was allocated to Haymarket from May 1939 (BR Database), moved to Dalry Road in September 1963 (SLS) and Aberdeen Ferryhill in March 1965 (BR Database) or May 1966 (SLS) for use primarily on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was the last A4 I saw in service on 26th March 1966 carrying a 61B (Aberdeen Ferryhill) shed plate on an A4 Preservation Society special from Waterloo. The date of my first hand viewing of the loco with the 61B plate suggests that the BR Database advice regarding the date of transfer may be correct. Tim was at Waterloo on the occasion as I have his photos confirming it was so although it would be another four years until I’d meet him. The loco was scrapped at Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth in October 1966. (BR Database).



Five photos here and seen previously in posts #2804, #2528, #2631 and #4232 of Princess 46208 Princess Helena Victoria with an 8A Edge Hill shed plate at Willesden Junction either with a milk train or about to couple to one in 1962-1963. 46208 had been an Edge Hill engine since September 1951 and was withdrawn in October 1962 (SLS) which puts this photo more than likely at some time in that year. It went to Crewe Works and was scrapped in November. (Rail UK). In the fourth of these photos you’ll see Derby Sulzer Type 2 D5141 trying to get in the action and also an EMU on the high level. For information about the diesel I went to D5141, 5141, 24141 D5141 became 24141 in February 1974 and there’s a photo four of the Class 24s at Swindon Works in June 1977 having been towed from Crewe at the end of May after withdrawal. Allocations were Longsight when new in November 1960, Bescot in January, Birmingham Division in April and Stoke Division in October – all 1966 – and stored in February 1976 before withdrawal in July 1976. (BR Database).











Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Delighted to see pictures of 46208 - I always thought the "Princess Royal" class to be a more handsome loco than the "Princess Coronation" class - just a personal opinion. Nice to see you back in 'posting' action, Brian.

Roger .