Another ‘idiot boy’ question from me, I’m afraid….Dominion of Canada is heading a rake of Mk1 suburban stock with a stopping passenger headcode. Would this have been unusual for an A4? Maybe a substitution for one of the many unsuccessful low-powered diesel type 2s that worked GN suburban services in the late 50s/early 60s? How the mighty are fallen…..
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
AJC
Western Thunderer
Empty stock? I’m totally ignorant of how King’s Cross was worked in the period, so quite likely totally wrong.
Adam
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thanks for yours, Roger, and hope to see some more updates/corrections to my scribblings in the future.
David @David B and Adam @AJC . I can only surmise about the suburban stock behind the A4, although we've seen such stock behind an A3 previously. Perhaps it was a relief loco for a break down or maybe the A4 brought in empty stock prior to being turned on the Kings Cross turntable to take a following train out. This would save a light engine movement and seems likely as the loco appears a bit later on the same film strip - in fact just two frames later which is the second photo in that pair.
Thank you Mick @Mick B for that comment about the tender behind 45551. I'd not appreciated that so it's another bit of info to connect to the photo.
We've seen this loco many times previously so it's sufficient to say it's Princess Coronation 46229 Duchess of Hamilton, at Willesden Junction sometime around 1962-1963. For details see
preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com
A Princess Coronation previously in posts #942 and #4245 on an up fast at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. This is 46254, City of Stoke on Trent which had an interesting history. In February 1955 it was a Camden engine and went on loan to the Western Region at Old Oak Common in January 1956, back to Camden in February. By September 1960 it was a Crewe North engine, came back to Camden in March 1963, returned to Crewe North the following May and was withdrawn from there, along with so many of the class, in September 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for scrapping which was done in December. (BR Database).
Jubilee 45671 Prince Rupert, previously in post #933 and here on a down Colne and Manchester train at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. It was a Perth South engine from October 1959, then Llandudno Junction in September 1960, Crewe North June/July, Edge Hill September and Warrington Dallam in November 1961 and was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed in January the following year. (Rail UK). The proposed date of the photo must be called in to doubt as the loco was apparently based at Perth South at the time so unlikely to have been anywhere near Bushey unless it moved to Llandudno Junction before the date proposed by the SLS.
8F 48665 – note the star indicating it’s specially balanced and the observer sitting on the bridge parapet, legs dangling over the drop – at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. It had been on the Willesden allocation since April 1950 and moved to Croes Newydd in December 1964, Edge Hill in March 1967, Newton Heath in May and Rose Grove in July 1968 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield where it was seen intact on 14th December 1968. (RO). BR Database advise a scrapping date during December 1968.
Brian
David @David B and Adam @AJC . I can only surmise about the suburban stock behind the A4, although we've seen such stock behind an A3 previously. Perhaps it was a relief loco for a break down or maybe the A4 brought in empty stock prior to being turned on the Kings Cross turntable to take a following train out. This would save a light engine movement and seems likely as the loco appears a bit later on the same film strip - in fact just two frames later which is the second photo in that pair.
Thank you Mick @Mick B for that comment about the tender behind 45551. I'd not appreciated that so it's another bit of info to connect to the photo.
We've seen this loco many times previously so it's sufficient to say it's Princess Coronation 46229 Duchess of Hamilton, at Willesden Junction sometime around 1962-1963. For details see
46229 Duchess of Hamilton (LMS 6229, LMS 6220 & BR 46229)
6229 was built in September 1938 at Crewe, at a cost of £11,302, as the tenth member of its class and the last in the second batch of five red streamliners, complete with gold speed cheat stripes. …
preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com
A Princess Coronation previously in posts #942 and #4245 on an up fast at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. This is 46254, City of Stoke on Trent which had an interesting history. In February 1955 it was a Camden engine and went on loan to the Western Region at Old Oak Common in January 1956, back to Camden in February. By September 1960 it was a Crewe North engine, came back to Camden in March 1963, returned to Crewe North the following May and was withdrawn from there, along with so many of the class, in September 1964. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for scrapping which was done in December. (BR Database).
Jubilee 45671 Prince Rupert, previously in post #933 and here on a down Colne and Manchester train at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. It was a Perth South engine from October 1959, then Llandudno Junction in September 1960, Crewe North June/July, Edge Hill September and Warrington Dallam in November 1961 and was withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). It went to Crewe Works for disposal which was completed in January the following year. (Rail UK). The proposed date of the photo must be called in to doubt as the loco was apparently based at Perth South at the time so unlikely to have been anywhere near Bushey unless it moved to Llandudno Junction before the date proposed by the SLS.
8F 48665 – note the star indicating it’s specially balanced and the observer sitting on the bridge parapet, legs dangling over the drop – at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. It had been on the Willesden allocation since April 1950 and moved to Croes Newydd in December 1964, Edge Hill in March 1967, Newton Heath in May and Rose Grove in July 1968 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield where it was seen intact on 14th December 1968. (RO). BR Database advise a scrapping date during December 1968.
Brian
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Re the picture of 48665 - is that an abandoned brake-van on the adjacent track? There does appear to be a plume of smoke above the vehicle, which I grant could be from the 8F, but I cannot make out a loco. I rather doubt it was a tram engine (fugitive from the ER.......!). Anyone have an idea?
Roger.
Roger.
AJC
Western Thunderer
Yes - an early LMS one (no ducket, inset panel to the veranda screen, diagram 1649 - it might even just about be one of the very last Midland ones which were fundamentally identical). Probably resting rather than abandoned...
Adam
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
That's a good question, Roger @Roger Pound and I think Adam @AJC has provided the answer. In fact there's a rather better view of it in post #5232, img794. Why it's been left there we don't know, of course, but it may just be a convenient place to park it. The goods yard for Bushey and Oxhey Station is in the far distance, right hand side of frame, so it may be that trains are made up there, shunted in to the siding and the brake van added although it seems an exceptionally long siding for this purpose. At this distance in time I guess we'll never know.
Un-named original Patriot 45549 on an up fast train at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960. This was a Warrington Dallam engine from June/July 1959 and was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at the end of August 1962 (BR Database) at Crewe Works where it was seen on 26th August. (WHTS).
Chappie remains on the bridge parapet and looks even more unstable....
Two 8Fs passing at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960 . Nearest on the down slow line is 48733 showing the star on the cab side indicating it was balanced for fast freight working. It looks as though the train it’s hauling is fully fitted. This had been a Bescot loco since October 1951 and was withdrawn in May 1965 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in August the same year. (BR Database).
48490 was a Toton engine from at least January 1948 (BR Database) going to Nottingham in February 1961, Wellingborough in March 1964 and back to Nottingham in May then Gorton in November, all 1964 and finally Heaton Mersey in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in December 1965 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was seen on 28th November 1965. (WHTS).
Seen on these pages most recently in post #4079 is A3 60054 Prince of Wales on an up parcels train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962 "shovelling white steam over it's shoulder". Prince of Wales was allocated to Grantham in July 1957, moved to Doncaster in October 1963 and ended up at New England in November the same year where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to R A King at Norwich in August 1964 and reported as scrapped in the same month. (BR Database).
WD 2-8-0 90065 on an up freight at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. This loco had been at Woodford Halse since February 1958 where it went in to store in August 1963 and was withdrawn at the end of March 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in May the same year. (BR Database). In the second shot articulated suburban stock comprising two 4-car sets awaits it's next turn.
Brian
Un-named original Patriot 45549 on an up fast train at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960. This was a Warrington Dallam engine from June/July 1959 and was withdrawn in June 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at the end of August 1962 (BR Database) at Crewe Works where it was seen on 26th August. (WHTS).
Chappie remains on the bridge parapet and looks even more unstable....
Two 8Fs passing at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960 . Nearest on the down slow line is 48733 showing the star on the cab side indicating it was balanced for fast freight working. It looks as though the train it’s hauling is fully fitted. This had been a Bescot loco since October 1951 and was withdrawn in May 1965 (SLS) going to Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, where it was scrapped in August the same year. (BR Database).
48490 was a Toton engine from at least January 1948 (BR Database) going to Nottingham in February 1961, Wellingborough in March 1964 and back to Nottingham in May then Gorton in November, all 1964 and finally Heaton Mersey in June 1965 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in December 1965 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) where it was seen on 28th November 1965. (WHTS).
Seen on these pages most recently in post #4079 is A3 60054 Prince of Wales on an up parcels train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962 "shovelling white steam over it's shoulder". Prince of Wales was allocated to Grantham in July 1957, moved to Doncaster in October 1963 and ended up at New England in November the same year where it was withdrawn in June 1964. (SLS). It was sold for scrap to R A King at Norwich in August 1964 and reported as scrapped in the same month. (BR Database).
WD 2-8-0 90065 on an up freight at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. This loco had been at Woodford Halse since February 1958 where it went in to store in August 1963 and was withdrawn at the end of March 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Crewe Works in May the same year. (BR Database). In the second shot articulated suburban stock comprising two 4-car sets awaits it's next turn.
Brian
AJC
Western Thunderer
Now this is a cracking photo. The parked up pair of QuadArts are great, of course, and the framing and steam effects really rather effective, but - inevitably - my eye is taken by the wagons. The sheeted vehicle behind the loco is a continental ferry wagon. I'm not quite sure of its origins and the lettering is far from clear, but it usefully confirms a detail I had been wondering about because it appears to be covered with a pair of BR sheets. Next to that is a domestic vehicle, an LNER Pipe, that railway's diagram 103 or 127 (the latter was slightly wider). Beyond that is one of three (see shot above), the-to my eye quite attractive - French (the doors are the tell) - Ferry vans. There was a shorter version of these which were quite cute. The helpful thing here is that you can see that the vans at least have standard continental wheels - 1000mm in nominal diameter.
I'll have a look at the diagram books on the Barrowmore MRG site to see if I can find a likely candidate for the open...
Adam
EDIT: The French vans are detailed on p. 119 here: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_01_Issue.pdf - UIC code Hfhks, there seem to have been about 1,000 of these.
I'll have a look at the diagram books on the Barrowmore MRG site to see if I can find a likely candidate for the open...
Adam
EDIT: The French vans are detailed on p. 119 here: http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book_01_Issue.pdf - UIC code Hfhks, there seem to have been about 1,000 of these.
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
It may be one of the ex-SR 12' w/b open wagons converted in 1935 for cross channel ferry traffic or one of the BR built 14' 10'' w/b ferry open wagons.
However, more than likely it'll be one of the SNCB wagon tombereau seen here in this SNCB April 1961 guide/handbook MATERIEL FERROVIAIRE A MARCHANDISES Matériel ferroviaire à marchandises. I haven't yet found a SNCF equivalent.
Cross channel open wagons seem to be a rarity in photos.
AJC
Western Thunderer
No, it's not either of the Southern types - the brake gear and proportions are wrong for both. If forced to guess, I'd agree that Belgian seems possible (but if so, it's not the type illustrated in the link - the sides are too low, I think, the axleguards are different, and there seem to be two pairs of doors - which seems to be a characteristic of French wagons - later versions here: French SNCF ferry flat Lfls, high open Ffs, special flat Ufss).
Adam
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Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
We could well be looking at an OCEM 19 or 29. Les tombereaux OCEM 19 et 29.
In the text I cannot find any reference to gabarit Anglais or gabarit Britannique but I would assume some must have been built for cross channel traffic as it was a standard wagon type, as was the van, built by Société franco-belge (full title: Société franco-belge de matériel de chemins de fer).
Also found out a bit more about the SNCF van - have scroll about 4/5ths down to Couvert OCEM gabarit Anglais. Les couverts OCEM 19 et 29
In the text I cannot find any reference to gabarit Anglais or gabarit Britannique but I would assume some must have been built for cross channel traffic as it was a standard wagon type, as was the van, built by Société franco-belge (full title: Société franco-belge de matériel de chemins de fer).
Also found out a bit more about the SNCF van - have scroll about 4/5ths down to Couvert OCEM gabarit Anglais. Les couverts OCEM 19 et 29
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
While the wagon remains a mystery it's certainly a SNCB or SNCF vehicle as the buffers are of the type seen on the standard Société franco-belge built vehicles.
A bit more on the OCEM 19/29 van. These were built by Société franco-belge in 1929 and supplied to the various French railway companies; Nord, Paris Orleans (PO), Midi, etc. In 1932 the PO modified some of theirs to gabarit Anglais (English loading gauge) and added vacuum brakes to enable operation on the Zeebrugge-Harwich train ferry which commenced in April 1924 (Dunkerque-Dover train ferry commenced in 1936). A number of these vans carried the inscription on hire to LNER (not in common user) return to Harwich (LNER).
French railway companies were nationalised on 1st January 1938 to become SNCF.
As to what the SNCF van and wagon were doing in this train heading south at Potters Bar is anyone's guess. Were they in a normal UK goods service or on their way to either Harwich or Dover via Temple Mills or Hither Green - both marshalling yards known for sorting continental traffic.
A bit more on the OCEM 19/29 van. These were built by Société franco-belge in 1929 and supplied to the various French railway companies; Nord, Paris Orleans (PO), Midi, etc. In 1932 the PO modified some of theirs to gabarit Anglais (English loading gauge) and added vacuum brakes to enable operation on the Zeebrugge-Harwich train ferry which commenced in April 1924 (Dunkerque-Dover train ferry commenced in 1936). A number of these vans carried the inscription on hire to LNER (not in common user) return to Harwich (LNER).
French railway companies were nationalised on 1st January 1938 to become SNCF.
As to what the SNCF van and wagon were doing in this train heading south at Potters Bar is anyone's guess. Were they in a normal UK goods service or on their way to either Harwich or Dover via Temple Mills or Hither Green - both marshalling yards known for sorting continental traffic.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Adam @AJC and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - how I agree with Howard @J_F_S . The amount of info forthcoming on what initially appears such a mundane subject is wonderful. There's at least one and possibly two new modelling opportunities here and when the gainsayers advise you "that didn't happen" you have the evidence!
This is A4 60033 Seagull on a down Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962, last in post #1559. It spent some time at Grantham (I have nothing about allocations before 1948) but in March of that year moved to Kings Cross where it stayed until withdrawal in December 1962. (BR Database & SLS). This must have been one of the loco’s final workings as it was withdrawn on December 29th. It was scrapped by the end of January 1963 at Doncaster Works. (Rail UK).
A3 60044 Melton on a down relief Edinburgh train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. The loco had been allocated to Kings Cross since April 1957 and was withdrawn on 16th June 1963. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works (RO) which it entered on 25th November 1963 (Yeadons Vol 1). The loco was recorded at Doncaster on 8th December 1963 (RO) and 15th December 1963 (WHTS) although BR Database proposes a scrapping date of 25th November 1963. Although we have no way of now confirming the photographer here looks like Tim's Brother-in-Law, Brian Wellsted.
A1 60145 St Mungo at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. There’s another photo in the same location on the same date in post #2431. From 26th November 1960 it was a Copley Hill, Leeds engine, moving to York North in September 1963 and then Darlington in January 1966. (SLS). It was withdrawn in June and sold for scrap to Draper's in Hull in August. (BR Database)
This is another of my favourites because the framing is so original. We’ve seen this B1 previously, in posts #4211 and #4284. It’s B1 61393 at Kings Cross on the Queen of Scots stock possibly on 6th February 1963. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross in June 1954, New England in November 1959, back to Kings Cross in February 1960 and Mexborough in June 1963. It was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in the same month. (BR Database).
Brian
This is A4 60033 Seagull on a down Newcastle train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962, last in post #1559. It spent some time at Grantham (I have nothing about allocations before 1948) but in March of that year moved to Kings Cross where it stayed until withdrawal in December 1962. (BR Database & SLS). This must have been one of the loco’s final workings as it was withdrawn on December 29th. It was scrapped by the end of January 1963 at Doncaster Works. (Rail UK).
A3 60044 Melton on a down relief Edinburgh train at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. The loco had been allocated to Kings Cross since April 1957 and was withdrawn on 16th June 1963. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works (RO) which it entered on 25th November 1963 (Yeadons Vol 1). The loco was recorded at Doncaster on 8th December 1963 (RO) and 15th December 1963 (WHTS) although BR Database proposes a scrapping date of 25th November 1963. Although we have no way of now confirming the photographer here looks like Tim's Brother-in-Law, Brian Wellsted.
A1 60145 St Mungo at Potters Bar on 22nd December 1962. There’s another photo in the same location on the same date in post #2431. From 26th November 1960 it was a Copley Hill, Leeds engine, moving to York North in September 1963 and then Darlington in January 1966. (SLS). It was withdrawn in June and sold for scrap to Draper's in Hull in August. (BR Database)
This is another of my favourites because the framing is so original. We’ve seen this B1 previously, in posts #4211 and #4284. It’s B1 61393 at Kings Cross on the Queen of Scots stock possibly on 6th February 1963. The loco was allocated to Kings Cross in June 1954, New England in November 1959, back to Kings Cross in February 1960 and Mexborough in June 1963. It was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in the same month. (BR Database).
Brian
AJC
Western Thunderer
Well that suggests that it really is fairly obscure! Not quite one off vanwide, perhaps, but pretty unusual!
Adam
That is too kind of you.
I simply don't have the knowledge of these pre my history ferry wagons and life is in the way of searching through reams of diagram books. As some of you will realise the number of different diagrams and diagram series used for the continental traffic was simply amazing. That the railways of Europe could be bothered to find so many wagons capable of fitting in our loading gauge and have the other necessities of sitting on the deck of ferry for hours across the North Sea or Channel is simply unbelievable.
And more on message for this site, it is unfortunate how it is also so ignored by most modellers. You only have to look at my site to see how, into the 80s, such wagons - yes the more contemporary ones - could turn up anywhere and in very small numbers. Single Transfesa at Ely on the weekend of an HMRS AGM and exhibition 1985 Transfesa ferry 4-wheel rail vans 1959 design | 24 71 214 8 451-0 Transfesa fruit van end platform Diag SFV 6215 @ Ely 85-03-24 © Paul Bartlett w or a ferry van at Welshpool Belgian 4-wheel 'ferry' vans or block trains in the North west (for Liverpool or / and Manchester? 1979 Transfesa ferry 4-wheel rail vans 1959 design | 21 80 214 1 098-8P Transfesa diagSFV6010 And my photos are biased towards the South of England, living as I was in Harpenden and Staines earlier.
Fortunately we have had BR RTR ferry van models in 4mm BR Ferry vans; diagram 1/227 of 1962 and conversions IMX VIX VJX VQX RRX RBX ZVX ZQB ZCX ZSX ZRX ZJX ZYX Look how I managed to capture a couple in Staines Central yard in my teens. Staines Central SR, road trailers & wagons
Paul
~
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Hello Paul @hrmspaul and thank you for some more really useful info. We're really blessed to have such a fount of knowledge and a collection of wagon photos which are second to none. As Adam @AJC says, if you don't know the nature of those wagons there's no hope for the rest of us.
This is one of those "do I include this photo or not" but it gives a clue to the origin of the following photo so it's here. It's inside an unidentified Kings Cross to Potters Bar DMU on 6th February 1963.
Seen previously in posts #1954 and #4083 A1 60131 Osprey at an unknown location but probably from the DMU above in 1963. It was an Ardsley engine since May 1962, moving to Neville Hill in August and being withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1965. (SLS). It went to TW Ward at Killamarsh for disposal which was complete at the end of November 1965. (Rail UK).
9F 2-10-0 92143 and here on a train of mineral wagons at Potters Bar on 6th February 1963. Home for the loco was New England when new on 31st August 1957 (BR Database), went in to store in January 1965 and was withdrawn in February. It was scrapped the following May at Cohen’s, Kettering. (BR Database).
Sister 9F 2-10-0 92142 moving brake vans brake vans at Potters Bar on 6th February 1963. It was a New England loco when new on 31st July 1957 (BR Database), and was withdrawn in February 1965. It was scrapped in February 1966 at Cohen’s, Kettering. (BR Database).
Crab 2-6-0 42882 believed to be at Ayr on 14th September 1961. It was allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor from as early as January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in November 1963 (BR Database) at McWilliams, Shettleston. (RO).
Believed to be at Ayr this is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42122 on 14th September 1961. The loco was on Ayr’s allocation from 21st November 1959 and withdrawn on 29th December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1963 (BR Database) at Campbell’s, Airdrie or Shieldhall. (RO).
Brian
This is one of those "do I include this photo or not" but it gives a clue to the origin of the following photo so it's here. It's inside an unidentified Kings Cross to Potters Bar DMU on 6th February 1963.
Seen previously in posts #1954 and #4083 A1 60131 Osprey at an unknown location but probably from the DMU above in 1963. It was an Ardsley engine since May 1962, moving to Neville Hill in August and being withdrawn from there at the beginning of October 1965. (SLS). It went to TW Ward at Killamarsh for disposal which was complete at the end of November 1965. (Rail UK).
9F 2-10-0 92143 and here on a train of mineral wagons at Potters Bar on 6th February 1963. Home for the loco was New England when new on 31st August 1957 (BR Database), went in to store in January 1965 and was withdrawn in February. It was scrapped the following May at Cohen’s, Kettering. (BR Database).
Sister 9F 2-10-0 92142 moving brake vans brake vans at Potters Bar on 6th February 1963. It was a New England loco when new on 31st July 1957 (BR Database), and was withdrawn in February 1965. It was scrapped in February 1966 at Cohen’s, Kettering. (BR Database).
Crab 2-6-0 42882 believed to be at Ayr on 14th September 1961. It was allocated to Carlisle Kingmoor from as early as January 1948 (BR Database) and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in November 1963 (BR Database) at McWilliams, Shettleston. (RO).
Believed to be at Ayr this is Fairburn 2-6-4T 42122 on 14th September 1961. The loco was on Ayr’s allocation from 21st November 1959 and withdrawn on 29th December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped in September 1963 (BR Database) at Campbell’s, Airdrie or Shieldhall. (RO).
Brian
