Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[timbowales]

The loco coal wagon in img009 appears to be one of the LMS D1973 variety, judging by the steelwork added to the corners and T stanchions – I've always assumed these were intended to provide some bodywork protection when the wagon was on a mechanical coal tippler, but can anybody confirm this?

Although I thought of the 'Castles' as being better proportioned, what an impressive machine was a 'King'! The subject of this photograph, 6022 King Edward III, was in 1947-48 the trials locomotive for the four row superheater subsequently fitted to other class members. I understand that this venture into high degree superheating was to assure satisfactory perfomance in the absence of Welsh coal, the availability of which was no longer a 'given' in the post-war world. Increased steam temperature called for better control over cylinder lubrication arrangements, as reflected in the mechanical lubricator that can be seen in the photograph adjaent to the smokebox on the driver's side. This, too, was a development first trialled on 6022.

Fortunately for 4mm modellers Chivers Finelines do a kit. I've just ordered one is how my wallet feels.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Although I thought of the 'Castles' as being better proportioned, what an impressive machine was a 'King'! The subject of this photograph, 6022 King Edward III, was in 1947-48 the trials locomotive for the four row superheater subsequently fitted to other class members. I understand that this venture into high degree superheating was to assure satisfactory perfomance in the absence of Welsh coal, the availability of which was no longer a 'given' in the post-war world. Increased steam temperature called for better control over cylinder lubrication arrangements, as reflected in the mechanical lubricator that can be seen in the photograph adjaent to the smokebox on the driver's side. This, too, was a development first trialled on 6022.

Much was made locally at the time of the post-war Labour Govt's desire to export 'Best Welsh Steaming Coal' to gain foreign currency rather than allow it to be used [other than in very small quantities] in the UK.
BR, by then a nationalised concern, could do little about it and of course the Standards and LNER pacifics were designed with larger fireboxes/grate areas because of the consequent lack of optimum home-made coal.

 

[Overseer]

The loco coal wagon in img009 appears to be one of the LMS D1973 variety, judging by the steelwork added to the corners and T stanchions – I've always assumed these were intended to provide some bodywork protection when the wagon was on a mechanical coal tippler, but can anybody confirm this?

Enlarging the image shows it is M750472 (although the M is obscured by the corner ironwork) so it is a D1973 wagon and still allocated to Loco coal traffic. The body is in very good condition. The copper bearing steel this diagram were built from appears to have provided corrosion resistance as was expected, at a higher initial cost. The identical D1974 wagons were built using wrought iron while the later D1974 wagons with RCH buffers were steel. The added ironwork was to protect the wagons when used in the wagon hoists on the LMS mechanised coaling plants.

 

[John Palmer]

Excellent further information on those loco coal wagons. Quite enterprising of the LMS to make such an investment in corrosion-resistant ironwork.

 

[hrmspaul]

Excellent further information on those loco coal wagons. Quite enterprising of the LMS to make such an investment in corrosion-resistant ironwork.

Does appear to have worked as they had relatively long lives, this collection LMS Mineral wagons, loco coal, iron ore includes one still in BR use in 1976 (I expect some of you saw that at the Derby works open day - very hot IIRC) and others looking good in internal Bargoed colliery use in 1981.

Paul

By the way the ex Private Trader with coke raves is nice in 008. And it has another 2 door mineral alongside.

 

[John Palmer]

The corrosion resistance of those D1973 loco coal wagons may not, after all, have been that good. Vol. 2 in David Larkin's “Acquired Wagons of British Railways” series has, at p.114, a fine portrait of M750419K, the whole the lower sides and ends of which seem to have rotted to the extent that replacement platework has been welded in.

And it has another 2 door mineral alongside.

...on which I think a Dean Churchward brake handle can be detected at the right hand end, suggesting that this might be a GWR Diagram N27 loco coal wagon.

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you, Martin @Martin Shaw for your corrective info regarding img006. All added to the file.

Then Tim @timbowales and John @John Palmer for the extended information about the King, further expanded by Arun and also for raising the matter of the wagon further enlarged by @Overseer , Paul @hrmspaul and John @John Palmer. Also to Paul and John again for the info about the wagon in img008.

Of particular interest to me is this A3, 60064 Tagalie, which I saw at Kings Cross and was previously in post #4275. It was one of the first to be withdrawn so never received smoke deflectors. I built a 7mm model from the DJH kit which came to me with a corridor tender and as the loco was paired with a LNER non corridor tender when I saw it and which I knew I could buy from David Andrews that’s exactly what I did. Here it’s light at Kings Cross having probably just been released from a platform on removal of the stock. Although I have no firm date I believe this to be at some time in 1958. It was allocated to Doncaster from July 1950 and moved to Grantham in July 1959 where it was withdrawn in September 1961 (SLS) – well, not strictly true as the SLS report it as going to Doncaster Works for repair and being cut up instead. It was seen by the SLS on the Stripping Road at Doncaster on 1st October 1961 so it’s safe to assume that it was scrapped in the same month. The steam loco nemesis in the form of a Brush Type 2 diesel lurks in the background.



Another probably from 1958 is sparkling clean A4 60026 Miles Beevor at Kings Cross Station and seen previously in posts #1054, #1393, #4284, #4752. The A4 was allocated to Kings Cross from September 1951. It moved away in June 1963 to New England and then St Margarets in November 1963 for use on the three hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow eventually ending up at Aberdeen Ferryhill in April 1964 (SLS). It was nonetheless withdrawn in December 1965 (SLS) although disposal took a while as it lasted until September 1967. The story after withdrawal is rather complex but it appears it was sold to Motherwell Machinery and Scrap in February 1966 but the deal was cancelled and the loco returned to Perth in August 1966. By the end of September the loco was at Crewe Works where the SLS report it as seen in the Traverser area on 11th December 1966, 9th January and 19th February 1967 and then in the Works yard on 18th June 1967. Ultimately it was broken up by Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth in September 1967. (Info from SLS and BR Database).



A4 60024 Kingfisher in the first photo having brought in The Elizabethan and in the second light engine after the stock was removed at Kings Cross in July 1961. It was allocated to Haymarket from May 1939 (BR Database), moved to Dalry Road in September 1963 (SLS) and Aberdeen Ferryhill in March 1965 (BR Database) or May 1966 (SLS) for use primarily on the 3 hour expresses from Aberdeen to Glasgow where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was the last A4 I saw in service on 26th March 1966 on an A4 Preservation Society special from Waterloo. Tim was at Waterloo on the occasion as I have his photos confirming it was so although it would be another four years until I’d meet him. The loco was scrapped at Hughes Bolckows at North Blyth in October 1966.





Brian

 

[michael080]

It has been said many times, so one more time: The elegance of the A4 in comparision with the clumsy German streamlined steam engines is just stunning!

 

[oldravendale]

I absolutely agree, Michael, and the less said about the LMS inverted bath tubs the better... (Now ducking behind a pile of as yet unprocessed negatives.)

Class V2 2-6-2 60802 on York Shed in 1960 carrying a 62B Heaton shed plate where it had been allocated since April 1956. It transferred to St Margarets in May 1963 and was withdrawn in March 1964 (SLS) going to Darlington Works where it was scrapped in the same month. (BR Database).



A8 4-6-2T 69886 carrying a 50F Malton shed plate where it had been allocated since February 1958. It went in to store in May 1959 and was withdrawn in June 1960 (SLS) so when photographed here at York Shed in 1960 was probably already withdrawn and on its way to Darlington Works which it entered in the same month and was cut up in July. (BR Database).



Seen previously in post #1311 this is May 1964 at Old Oak Common. The loco is 94XX 8481. It went new to Cardiff Cathays in 1952 and ended at OOC via Barry (Shed) in March 1963. It was withdrawn in June 1965 (SLS) and reported as in store at Southall from June to August the same year. (WHTS) It was scrapped in October (BRDatabase) at Ward’s, Briton Ferry. (WHTS).



Castle Class 7000, Viscount Portal, at Old Oak Common in May 1964. This has been seen a few times previously, for example in posts #1179, #1226 and #1227. It was at Gloucester Horton Road from June 1959, migrating to Worcester in March 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in June 1964 at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (BR Database).



Another at Old Oak Common was Modified Hall 6963 Throwley Hall in May 1964, seen previously in post #1208. It had been on the Old Oak Common allocation since December 1960 and was on the cusp of moving to Reading which occurred in the month of the photo. It then went in to Didcot (January 1965) and Oxford (July 1965) where it was withdrawn a fortnight after arriving. (SLS). It was dismantled at Birds, Long Marston (WHTS) by the end of October the same year. (BR Database).


Brian

 

[Ian@StEnochs]

It has been said many times, so one more time: The elegance of the A4 in comparision with the clumsy German streamlined steam engines is just stunning!

Michael,

I mostly agree with you but you have to admit that when the A3’s got the ‘German’ style smoke deflectors it improved their looks immensely.

Ian.

 

[PMP]

Condensing 57XX 0-6-0PT 9710 possibly at Acton on 4th October 1962. The home shed was probably always Old Oak Common – it had certainly been allocated there since at least 1947. (BR Database). Withdrawal followed in October 1964 (SLS) and it was seen on 19th November 1964 at Cox and Danks, Park Royal (WHTS) and was scrapped in January 1965 (BR Database). Of interest is that the SLS report the loco at Caerphilly Works Erecting Shop on 29th October 1961.

View attachment 237570

Another showing 9710 but here with an unidentified 94XX pannier tank at Acton on 4th October 1962.

View attachment 237571

I believe 9710 may have been unique in that it never received a top feed boiler.

 

[Arun Sharma]

I absolutely agree, Michael, and the less said about the LMS inverted bath tubs the better... (Now ducking behind a pile of as yet unprocessed negatives.)

Class V2 2-6-2 60802 on York Shed in 1960 carrying a 62B Heaton shed plate where it had been allocated since April 1956. It transferred to St Margarets in May 1963 and was withdrawn in March 1964 (SLS) going to Darlington Works where it was scrapped in the same month. (BR Database).

View attachment 237983

A8 4-6-2T 69886 carrying a 50F Malton shed plate where it had been allocated since February 1958. It went in to store in May 1959 and was withdrawn in June 1960 (SLS) so when photographed here at York Shed in 1960 was probably already withdrawn and on its way to Darlington Works which it entered in the same month and was cut up in July. (BR Database).

View attachment 237984

Seen previously in post #1311 this is May 1964 at Old Oak Common. The loco is 94XX 8481. It went new to Cardiff Cathays in 1952 and ended at OOC via Barry (Shed) in March 1963. It was withdrawn in June 1965 (SLS) and reported as in store at Southall from June to August the same year. (WHTS) It was scrapped in October (BRDatabase) at Ward’s, Briton Ferry. (WHTS).

View attachment 237985

Castle Class 7000, Viscount Portal, at Old Oak Common in May 1964. This has been seen a few times previously, for example in posts #1179, #1226 and #1227. It was at Gloucester Horton Road from June 1959, migrating to Worcester in March 1963 from where it was withdrawn at the end of December the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in June 1964 at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (BR Database).

View attachment 237986

Another at Old Oak Common was Modified Hall 6963 Throwley Hall in May 1964, seen previously in post #1208. It had been on the Old Oak Common allocation since December 1960 and was on the cusp of moving to Reading which occurred in the month of the photo. It then went in to Didcot (January 1965) and Oxford (July 1965) where it was withdrawn a fortnight after arriving. (SLS). It was dismantled at Birds, Long Marston (WHTS) by the end of October the same year. (BR Database).

View attachment 237987
Brian

Regarding the rather fine pic of 60802 - Is the engine behind it another V2 or is it an A3?

 

[65179]

Regarding the rather fine pic of 60802 - Is the engine behind it another V2 or is it an A3?

A V2 - the motion bracket and visible mechanical lubricators being two of the relevant details.

Regards,
Simon

 

[oldravendale]

Ian @Ian@StEnochs - I'm not sure everyone would agree, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I didn't know that about 9710, @PMP , so an interesting snippet to add to the file. Thank you.

And thanks for your reply to Arun's query, Simon @65179 . I'd certainly have been unable to answer.

An unidentified Class 94XX 0-6-0PT at Old Oak Common on empty stock in May 1964.



Seen a few times previously, most recently in post #2378 is 61XX 2-6-2T 6142 probably here on empty stock at Old Oak Common in May 1964. When this loco was shown on a previous occasion Dave (daifly) supplied the following info: The Prairie Papers #2 by Ian Sixsmith pub Irwell Press shows 6142 as an OOC loco from 4 February 1939 to 24th August 1964 when it moved to Southall. It was scrapped by Hayes/Birds at Tremains Yard, Bridgend by 31st December 1964. Scrapping info from RailUK website.



Seen previously in post #1204 is condensing 57XX 0-6-0PT 9707 at Old Oak Common and probably on empty stock from Paddington in May 1964. 9707 was allocated to Southall in November 1963, then to Taunton in August 1964 (SLS) although the transfer never physically took place (WHTS). It was withdrawn in September 1964 (SLS). By December it was scrapped by Bird's, Risca, Newport. (WHTS).



With a shed plate confirming at least a broad allocation (81?) 61XX 2-6-2T 6135 heads a rake of vans towards Paddington at Old Oak Common in December 1964. This loco has featured quite a few times previously and most recently in post #1228. It was on the allocation of Old Oak Common from at least June 1947 (BR Database) and we have evidence of it carrying an 81A shed plate. It went to Reading in September 1964, then Southall in January 1965 before Oxford in the September. It was withdrawn in January 1966 (SLS) and went to Cashmore's, Newport where it was scrapped in March 1966. (BR Database)



Brian

 

[oldravendale]

I suspect this is an unidentified 43XX 2-6-0 at Old Oak Common on vans towards London in December 1964.



Hall Class 5975 Winslow Hall, nameplate removed, light engine at Old Oak Common erroneously recorded as in December 1964 as the loco was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was recorded stored in Swindon Stock Shed Yard in September and October 1964 (RO and SLS), on 16th May 1965 it was seen awaiting entry to Cashmore’s, Newport (WHTS). The photo is probably a year earlier than suggested – the loco was allocated to St Philips Marsh in September 1960 and Bristol Barrow Road in June 1964 (SLS) where it was withdrawn in July (BR Database). BR Database also proposes that it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in December 1964 but along with other sightings I tend to believe that the WHTS date is more accurate.



We’ve essentially seen these photos or something very similar previously in post #947 and the V2 has also appeared previously in post #642. This negative is recorded as February 1964 but there is reason to believe that it’s actually 1963. This V2 was photographed at Willesden so V2s were clearly occasional visitors. This is named V2 60847, St Peter's School, but shorn of nameplates. It's carrying a 50A (York North) shedplate so I can only assume that it had come up to London on a freight via the ECML and then brought that across to Willesden. 60847 had been a York resident since 1946 and was withdrawn from there at the end of June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped by the following August at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (WHTS). Type 2 diesel D5085 looks on and lasted only eleven years longer than the V2 being withdrawn in 1976 and cut up at Swindon in 1978 as 24085. The renumbering occurred in May 1964. It was delivered new to Willesden in August 1960, Cricklewood January 1961, back to Willesden in April 1965, Stoke Division in March 1967, went in to store in May 1976 and final withdrawal as noted above in July 1976. (BR Database).





Brian

 

[daifly]

Hall Class 5975 Winslow Hall, nameplate removed, light engine at Old Oak Common erroneously recorded as in December 1964 as the loco was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was recorded stored in Swindon Stock Shed Yard in September and October 1964 (RO and SLS), on 16th May 1965 it was seen awaiting entry to Cashmore’s, Newport (WHTS). The photo is probably a year earlier than suggested – the loco was allocated to St Philips Marsh in September 1960 and Bristol Barrow Road in June 1964 (SLS) where it was withdrawn in July (BR Database). BR Database also proposes that it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in December 1964 but along with other sightings I tend to believe that the WHTS date is more accurate.

Brian
I have a photo of 5975 in remarkably similar condition sans nameplates etc. taken at Weymouth in September ‘63. I think your supposition of December ‘63 for the photo above is accurate.
Dave

 

[Martin Shaw]

Irwell has 5975 Winslow Hall sold to J.Cashmore Newport on 4/9/64. I wonder whether BR would have been willing to store a withdrawn and sold locomotive for nine months, maybe they did as it was peak time for scrapping on the WR.

 

[Arun Sharma]

I suspect this is an unidentified 43XX 2-6-0 at Old Oak Common on vans towards London in December 1964.

View attachment 238110

Hall Class 5975 Winslow Hall, nameplate removed, light engine at Old Oak Common erroneously recorded as in December 1964 as the loco was withdrawn in July 1964. (SLS). It was recorded stored in Swindon Stock Shed Yard in September and October 1964 (RO and SLS), on 16th May 1965 it was seen awaiting entry to Cashmore’s, Newport (WHTS). The photo is probably a year earlier than suggested – the loco was allocated to St Philips Marsh in September 1960 and Bristol Barrow Road in June 1964 (SLS) where it was withdrawn in July (BR Database). BR Database also proposes that it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport, in December 1964 but along with other sightings I tend to believe that the WHTS date is more accurate.

View attachment 238111

We’ve essentially seen these photos or something very similar previously in post #947 and the V2 has also appeared previously in post #642. This negative is recorded as February 1964 but there is reason to believe that it’s actually 1963. This V2 was photographed at Willesden so V2s were clearly occasional visitors. This is named V2 60847, St Peter's School, but shorn of nameplates. It's carrying a 50A (York North) shedplate so I can only assume that it had come up to London on a freight via the ECML and then brought that across to Willesden. 60847 had been a York resident since 1946 and was withdrawn from there at the end of June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped by the following August at Cashmore's Great Bridge. (WHTS). Type 2 diesel D5085 looks on and lasted only eleven years longer than the V2 being withdrawn in 1976 and cut up at Swindon in 1978 as 24085. The renumbering occurred in May 1964. It was delivered new to Willesden in August 1960, Cricklewood January 1961, back to Willesden in April 1965, Stoke Division in March 1967, went in to store in May 1976 and final withdrawal as noted above in July 1976. (BR Database).

View attachment 238112

View attachment 238113

Brian

Are you sure the V2 is at Willesden? - Apart from the odd WD on coal trains and some odd SR engines on transfer freights, I don't recall ever seeing an ex-LNER engine at Willesden in 1963/4. Cricklewood and Neasden [on football specials] yes, but not Willesden. The other thing is that it must have been quite difficult to take a photograph anywhere in Willesden without getting several of the overhead lights and their span wires in the picture. The one lamp that is visible is certainly an LNWR one - I once mastered a whole load of them in 7mm for the Hillingdon MRC.

 

[oldravendale]

I much appreciate that advice, Dave @daifly . It confirms the view that the date on the original description is incorrect, as does Martin's @Martin Shaw .

As for the V2, Arun, that is definitely Willesden. In fact there are one or two in the collection of V2s there. See img707 in post #904 and a few others either side of that. V2s confirmed are 60847 and 60871 - there may be others.

Seen previously in posts #3787 and #4245 this is Princess Coronation 46239 City of Chester nosing out of Willesden long shed in February 1964. It was a Camden engine from at least 1948 until September 1963 when it moved to Holyhead, then Willesden a month later and finally Crewe North in September 1964 before withdrawal within the month. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge for disposal which was complete by the end of December (BR Database). The SLS agrees with these dates in approximate terms.



Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75040 at Cricklewood in September 1964. It was allocated to Derby in October 1962, Stoke October 1963 and Carnforth in July 1967 where it was withdrawn in October the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering, in March 1968. (BR Database).



Cricklewood in September 1964 and two views of an LMS Jinty last seen in post #829. I suspect (but can't remember) that most if not all the MR 3Fs had gone by then, and I remember this particular 3F at Willesden. It’s 47432 which had been at Cricklewood since January 1959. It moved to Willesden in January 1965 and was withdrawn in August the same year. (SLS). Final disposal was at Bird’s, Bridgend (RO) in February 1966. (BR Database).





Last seen in post #4171 was Princess Coronation 46240 City of Coventry here seen moving off shed at Willesden in March 1964. The first of these two was printed for Tim in the "Shed Scenes" series. It had been a Camden engine since at least 1948 (BR Database) but moved to Willesden in September 1963 and finally Crewe North in September 1964 where it was withdrawn only a week after arrival. (SLS). It went to Cashmore's Great Bridge where it was scrapped in December. (BR Database).





Brian

 

[76043]

The 43xx on vans provides a nice selection of wagonery to look at. A Hybar, BR standard van and two LMS vans. The LMS van nearest the loco was built with vacuum gear and the other added by BR. Both have plate axleboxes. Plenty of actual numbers to read too! Fab!
Tony