Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[46240]

Good morning Brian,

I thought that the Burton Black Five may have been involved in a football special, and the 'Up the City' reference would have been Leicester City's appearance at the FA Cup Final at Wembley.

This would be explained by Leicester shed borrowing the loco from Burton.

However, this was on 25th May 1963, so is before the nominal date of the photo.

So, no clearer to an explanation.

Cheers, Nigel.

 

[Arun Sharma]

Can anyone read the partial nameplate on the Britannia behind 78039?

 

[daifly]

It's 70043 Lord Kitchener, I believe. The panoramic shed view has 70043 in the same relative position to 78039. The grainy numberplate looks like Kitchener which was shedded at Willesden at the time!

Dave

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you for yours, Tony @46240 . I think your info gives us the correct date for the photo. As you'll have noticed, the dates attributed are often somewhat woolly. However, in reviewing the photo I note it's not actually a Black 5 - it's a Jubilee. Corrected by way of an edit. Doubtless there were a number of special trains to London on that date and it's unusual for Six Bells Junction to not have noted details.

Thanks for the question, Arun, and for the reply, Dave @daifly . More info to go with that photo!

Two Britannias, 70001 Lord Hurcomb carrying a 1A Willesden shed plate and 70033 Charles Dickens at Willesden Shed in June 1963. Dealing with Lord Hurcomb first it was seen very recently in posts #4725 and #4745. The loco was allocated to Norwich Thorpe in February 1959, March in October 1961, Willesden March 1963, Aston in January and Carlisle Kingmoor in October 1964 where it was withdrawn in September 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in December 1966 at Motherwell Machinery and Scrap, Wishaw. (BR Database).


Seen previously in posts #2645 and #4195 is Britannia 70033 Charles Dickens. It had been a Willesden engine since February 1961 and went to Llandudno Junction in December 1962. It moved around a lot, to Holyhead in March 1963 and back to Willesden in June and Crewe North in October the same year before going to Crewe South in June and ending up at Carlisle Kingmoor in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in July 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie, in April1968. (BR Database).



Carrying a 1A Willesden shed plate is 3F Jinty 47307 at Willesden Shed, the first photo in March 1964 and the second in June 1963. It was on the Willesden allocation from August 1962. It moved to Bletchley in June 1963 and Stoke in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in August 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge (RO) in December 1966. (BR Database).





Rebuilt Patriot 45529 Stephenson with a 1A Willesden shed plate at Willesden on a date proposed by Tim to be March 1964. We saw this loco in posts #3783, #4207 and #4637. It was allocated to Crewe North in October 1953 and loaned to Camden the following month, being returned in January 1954. Camden borrowed it again in April 1958 and it was returned within the same accounting period ending up at Willesden in February 1961 before going to Annesley in October 1963 where it was withdrawn in February 1964. (SLS). It was observed at Crewe Works (WHTS) and was scrapped in February 1964. (BR Database) which calls in to question the date advised by Tim, so I’d estimate the photo as a year earlier.



Two here of Britannia 70044 Earl Haig at Willesden Shed in June 1963. Previously seen in posts #1337 and #4482 the loco was allocated to Longsight from December 1954, then Holbeck in December 1958. In September 1962 it became one of Crewe North's allocation but subsequently moved to Crewe South in June, Newton Heath in August 1965 and finally Stockport Edgeley in June 1966. (SLS). It was withdrawn at the end of October 1966 and went to T W Ward, Beighton where it was scrapped by 20th February 1967 (BR Database and Rail UK).




Brian

 

[LarryG]

Behind Jinty 47307 is an LNWR/WCJS 12-wheel sleeper altered to be something else.

 

[daifly]

However, in reviewing the photo I note it's not actually a Black 5 - it's a Jubilee. Corrected by way of an edit. Doubtless there were a number of special trains to London on that date and it's unusual for Six Bells Junction to not have noted details.

The headcode suggests to me that it may have been an 'extra' rather than a 'special'. I.e. a scheduled service run in several parts so would not feature in Six Bells listings.

Others with more knowledge will undoubtedly correct my speculation!

Dave

 

[hrmspaul]

Behind Jinty 47307 is an LNWR/WCJS 12-wheel sleeper altered to be something else.

And an LNER CCT C (LNER 4 wheel NPCCS - CCT (C) and) and either a GWR DAMO or ASMO - I cannot recollect which from the narrow ventilators and I'm 11K miles from my library.

Paul

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

An unidentified Black 5 Jubilee with a 17B Burton on Trent shed plate at Willesden Shed in June 1963. The board on the smokebox, over the loco number reads “ Up The City”. I’ve researched any possible special train which may explain the presence of this loco and the smokebox name on Six Bells Junction but I can’t find a match.

I thought that the Burton Black Five may have been involved in a football special, and the 'Up the City' reference would have been Leicester City's appearance at the FA Cup Final at Wembley.

This would be explained by Leicester shed borrowing the loco from Burton.

However, this was on 25th May 1963, so is before the nominal date of the photo.

Thank you for yours, Tony @46240 . I think your info gives us the correct date for the photo. As you'll have noticed, the dates attributed are often somewhat woolly. However, in reviewing the photo I note it's not actually a Black 5 - it's a Jubilee. Corrected by way of an edit. Doubtless there were a number of special trains to London on that date and it's unusual for Six Bells Junction to not have noted details.

The headcode suggests to me that it may have been an 'extra' rather than a 'special'. I.e. a scheduled service run in several parts so would not feature in Six Bells listings.

Others with more knowledge will undoubtedly correct my speculation!

As @daifly Dave alludes to this would be an 'extra' or 'special' to cope with the additional football traffic. As such it would not be an official 'railtour' as generally documented in Six Bells Junction, however, some football and rugby specials are documented.

Unlike railtours, football and rugby specials may have drawn less attention from trainspotters as these types of trains were more than likely arranged at short notice, easier to slot into 'normal' traffic as they would have traversed the most direct route and hauled by 'everyday' traffic locomotives.

 

[Barry37]

And an LNER CCT C (LNER 4 wheel NPCCS - CCT (C) and) and either a GWR DAMO or ASMO - I cannot recollect which from the narrow ventilators and I'm 11K miles from my library.

Paul

Seems to be a G32 ASMO of 1930, with "concertina" folding end doors, hence narrow ventilators. The doors could be opened whilst in a train, allowing vehicles to drive through. I assume that there was some kind of loose ramp (or ramps) to bridge the gap, or a fold-down plate behind the doors.

 

[Roger Pound]

Unlike railtours, football and rugby specials may have drawn less attention from trainspotters as these types of trains were more than likely arranged at short notice, easier to slot into 'normal' traffic as they would have traversed the most direct route and hauled by 'everyday' traffic locomotives.

As a bit of passing interest, I worked in Coalville, Leicestershire in the late fifties/early sixties when the collieries were still extant. There was an annual wakes fortnight (this subject has been dealt with previously on this thread) and there was a special service which actually started from Hugglescote , thence to Coalville and forward to Blackpool. During my time there the service was usually worked by a Burton Jubilee, probably borrowed by Leicester Depot, as Coalville Depot had an entirely freight loco allocation then. Thus the use of a Burton loco for a 1963 Cup Final special was very likely.

Roger.

 

[Martin Shaw]

I've been looking into the unidentified Jubilee at Willesden in #045, without a great deal of success it has to be admitted. There was a massive influx of Jubilees to Burton upon Trent depot in late 61/early 62 as a result of increasing dieselisation of the Midland mainline. They had come from the usual likely places Kentish Town, Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, to the extent that Burton had twenty one on its books in May 63 which I am not boringly going to list.

A footex for the cup final from Leicester to Wembley would quite logically come up the GC, around the stadium loop and deposit the stock at possibly Neasden and the engine retire to Neasden shed for servicing. Unfortunately Neasden shed had closed nearly a year earlier and locomotive requirements for the GC were satisfied by Cricklewood until 64 and Willesden thereafter. A pic of a Jubilee at Willesden in May 63 is unusual.

The RO for that year is surprisingly unhelpful with no mention of the cup final trains although it was held three weeks later than usual in 63 due to the extreme winter. I have found two pics on Flickr dated 25/5/63 taken at Whetstone, firstly 45626 Seychelles with reporting number 1T55 which rather rules it out, and secondly 45622 Nyasaland which was subsequently photographed later that day on Cricklewood shed which also rules it out. The T in the reporting number indicates a train wholly on the LM region.

This does leave a possible nineteen candidates.

All fairly idle speculation I appreciate and I think this one has to be filed under unsolvable.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

The RO for that year is surprisingly unhelpful with no mention of the cup final trains although it was held three weeks later than usual in 63 due to the extreme winter.

RO?

 

[AJC]

RO?

Railway Observer, I suspect.

Adam

 

[Martin Shaw]

Adam suspected correctly.

Martin

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

A footex for the cup final from Leicester to Wembley would quite logically come up the GC, around the stadium loop and deposit the stock at possibly Neasden and the engine retire to Neasden shed for servicing. Unfortunately Neasden shed had closed nearly a year earlier and locomotive requirements for the GC were satisfied by Cricklewood until 64 and Willesden thereafter. A pic of a Jubilee at Willesden in May 63 is unusual.

As the 1963 cup final was between Leicester City and Manchester United perhaps Cricklewood (and Kentish Town?) was/were full with the football specials from both Manchester and Leicester despite the three routes available at the time (MR, LNW and GC). With all these trains being slotted into the normal traffic.

Six Bells Junction does record the Manchester United special team train travelling to and from St Pancras.

As you say - one for the mystery files.

 

[oldravendale]

Larry - thanks for yours about that six wheeled sleeper. Another detail I'd failed to notice. And then Paul @hrmspaul for details about the CCT and the GWR vehicle with details expanded by Barry @Barry37 .

Also Dave @daifly , Dave @Yorkshire Dave, Roger @Roger Pound and Martin @Martin Shaw for the efforts you've made to identify a likely candidate for the football special loco and the background info you've provided. Although we currently have no final definition we know a lot more about the background to the picture which makes it of considerably greater interest than when it had the bald basic info.

Ivatt class 2 2-6-0 46504 with a 1A Willesden shed plate at its home shed in June 1963. It was allocated to Willesden from March and moved to Barrow in Furness in June 1963, Bury in October 1964, then Bolton in April 1965 and Newton Heath in September 1966 where it was withdrawn a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in February 1967. (BR Database).



Two photos of Britannia itself, No 70000 at Willesden shed in June 1963 and seen previously in post #2109. It was at Willesden from March the same year then Crewe North in June followed by Crewe South in June 1965 from where it was loaned to Newton Heath in March 1966. The allocation was made permanent a month later followed by withdrawal in May the same year. (SLS). It’s journey in preservation can be seen here:

70000 Britannia

This engine was completed at Crewe works in January 1951 at a cost of £20,325. Britannia did not reach the high mileages of many of its classmates on the Great Eastern down to being selected as the…

preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com

9F 2-10-0 92059 believed to be at Willesden shed in June 1963. By September 1960 it had become a Toton engine, moving to Warrington Dallam in March 1965 and Birkenhead Mollington Street the following June where it was withdrawn in September 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull in January 1967. (BR Database).



Lined green Ivatt 2MT 2-6-0 46517 at Willesden shed in May (but probably June) 1963. It was allocated to Willesden from the previous March, moving to Northwich in June 1963 and then Springs Branch Wigan in August 1964 where it was withdrawn in November 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1967 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield (RO).



Two photos here of a loco previously in post #1999 is Castle 5076 Gladiator carrying confirmation with the 81A shedplate that it's owned by the shed at which it's been photographed, Old Oak Common in May 1963. The Locoshed book for May/Jun 1964 shows that it was moved to Southall by then and withdrawal followed at the end of September 1964 when it went to R S Birds/Hayes at Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (Rail UK).





Brian

 

[timbowales]

I'm puzzled. What turns would Willesden have that required a Class 2 tender locomotive?

 

[MoatLane]

Weren't these two part of the Swindon-built batch for the Mid-Wales line?

 

[timbowales]

Weren't these two part of the Swindon-built batch for the Mid-Wales line?

Yes, 46503 - 46514 in 1952 and 46515 - 46527 in 1953

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

I'm puzzled. What turns would Willesden have that required a Class 2 tender locomotive?

Stanmore? West London Line to the Southern Region (Clapham Jct?), North London Line both east and west?