Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[Arun Sharma]

At around the time of the photograph [#4999], the sidings all along the bottom end of the WCML were full [in retrospect] of wierd and wonderful [and oddly modified] coaches which I paid little attention to other than noting that they were a dirty olive green colour and most had "BICC" painted on them. They were of course the trains making up the South of Crewe 25kV electricication installation/testing rolling stock.
I always regretting never photographing them and to this day, I get the impression that very few others did.

 

[oldravendale]

I agree, Larry. I had so many opportunities to photograph that breakdown train but never did so. You clearly feel the same about missed opportunities, Arun.

Modified Halls 6963 Throwley Hall and 6990 Witherslack Hall bracket Castle 5018 St Mawes Castle in Old Oak Shed in May 1963.

Modified Hall 6963 Throwley Hall seen before in post #1208 was allocated to Old Oak Common from December 1960, then went in succession to Reading (May 1964), Didcot (January 1965) and Oxford (July 1965) where it was withdrawn a fortnight after arriving. (SLS). It was dismantled at Birds, Long Marston (WHTS) by the end of October the same year. (BR Database).

Modified Hall 6990 Witherslack Hall previously seen in posts #2243 and #3641 . It was allocated to Old Oak Common in December 1951 and didn't move to St Philips Marsh until November 1963. In June 1964 it went to Bristol Barrow Road where it was withdrawn in December 1965. (SLS). It is currently working on the GCR at Loughborough where it arrived by way of Woodhams, Barry. See 6990 Witherslack Hall

Castle 5018 St Mawes Castle was a Reading engine from April 1958 as previously reported in post #1819, withdrawn in March 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cohens, Kettering, in November the same year. (BR Database).



Castle 5076 Gladiator photographed at Old Oak Common in May 1963. It was a new loco to Old Oak in the four weeks ending 4th May 1963. (SLS). The Locoshed book for May/Jun 1964 shows that it was moved to Southall by then – the SLS advises the move was in June 1964 - and withdrawal followed in September 1964 (SLS) when it went to R S Birds/Hayes at Bridgend where it was scrapped by the end of the year. (Rail UK).



Two photos of Grange Class 4-6-0 6804 Brockington Grange at Old Oak Common Shed Yard in May 1963. 6804 was a Llanelli engine from August 1962, then St Philips Marsh in November 1963 and Bristol Barrow Road in June 1964 where it was withdrawn in August the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped in November 1964 (BR Database) at Bird’s, Risca. (WHTS).





County 1021 County of Montgomery taking water at Old Oak Common Shed Yard in May 1963. The 82B shed plate confirms the allocation as St Philips Marsh where it was allocated in December 1960 and withdrawn in November 1963. (SLS). It was seen at Hayes, Bridgend Yard on 17th June 1964 (LCGB) where it was scrapped in July 1964. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Just out of nostalgic interest I checked my old 1954 Combined Edition and 44757 is marked off as seen. Perhaps not too surprising as Holbeck locos regularly worked through Leicester on MML services from Yorkshire at that time. Another memory of happy times, thank you.

Roger.

 

[Martin Shaw]

Brian
Various loco CVs from Irwell.

5018 St Mawes Castle, Old Oak 28/7/32, Newton Abbot 23/1/36, Old Oak 7/4/36, Stafford Road 2/45, Bath Road 7/7/50, Swindon 23/9/50,
Gloucester 1/51, Canton 10/52, Reading 3/58, Wdn 10/3/64, Cut up G.Cohen, Kettering.

6963 Throwley Hall Stafford Road 7/44, Gloucester 9/44, Shrewsbury 3/45, Banbury 1/12/51, Oxley 19/4/52, Chester 12/7/52, To LMR stock 23/2/58,
Canton 6/9/58, To WR stock 7/9/58, Landore 31/10/59, Canton 28/11/59, Old Oak 31/12/60, Reading 4/5/64, Didcot 9/1/65, Oxford 10/7/65,
Wdn 21/7/65, Sold to Birds Long Marston 25/8/65.

6990 Witherslack Hall Old Oak 15/5/48, Oxford 7/10/50, Old Oak 29/12/51, St Philips Marsh 2/11/63, Barrow Road 22/6/64, Wdn 3/12/65.

5076 Gladiator formerly Drysllwyn Castle Exeter 25/8/38, Landore 12/38, Bath Road 2/39, Renamed 1/41, Weston-Super-Mare 5/45,
Bath Road 7/45, Weston-Super-Mare 3/48, Bath Road 4/48, Old Oak 7/2/51, Stored Swindon 17/2/51, Old Oak 18/3/51, Bath Road 6/51,
Laira 16/10/51, Bath Road 29/11/51, Reading 31/3/60, Old Oak 4/5/63, Southall 29/6/64, Wdn 16/9/64, Cut up Hayes Bridgend.

6804 Brockington Grange St Philips Marsh 19/9/36, Westbury 12/42, St Philips Marsh 2/12/50, Laira 25/2/61, Llanelly 11/8/62,
St Philips Marsh 30/11/63, Barrow Road 22/6/64, Wdn 10/8/64.

1021 County of Montgomery Old Oak 28/12/46, Laira 28/12/50, Penzance 26/2/55, Laira 16/7/55, Swindon 28/11/59, St Philips Marsh 31/12/60,
Wdn 1/11/63.

 

[oldravendale]

As ever I'm glad to have stirred some memories for you, Roger @Roger Pound . Thanks too, Martin @Martin Shaw for "furrher and better particulars.

Castle 5057 Earl Waldegrave at Old Oak Common in May 1963. Previously in post #1530 5057 was an Old Oak engine from April 1960. (SLS). The loco was withdrawn in March 1964 and was scrapped the following August at Swindon. (BR Database).



Inside Old Oak Common Shed in May 1963 is preserved A3 4472 Flying Scotsman. So much has been written about the loco and it is so well known that a further description is unnecessary.





It has to be admitted that this is a less than good example of Tim’s photos although it has plenty of atmosphere. Anyway, it’s an unidentified B1 at Kings Cross on 16th February 1961.



V2 2-6-2 60956 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. There are some interesting road and rail vehicles on the right of frame. The loco was allocated to New England in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). In December the same year it was scrapped at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).



V2 60814 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. The V2 had been a Kings Cross engine since February 1953 and moved to Grantham in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in April 1963. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed the same month. (BR Database).



From posts #1 and #4215 is A1 Class 60123, H A Ivatt here at Wood Green on 16th February 1961 with one of they there new fangled DMUs in the background. The loco was at Ardsley from September 1951, moving to Copley Hill Leeds in October 1957 and then back to Ardsley in May 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following October. (SLS). BR Database reports that it went to Doncaster Works for disposal, agreed by WHTS who advise it was photographed at Doncaster with front end damage on 29 September 1962, condemned and seen in the works yard on 14th October.



Brian

 

[76043]

That shot of the B1 at Kings Cross I personally think would look great darker and probably exposed as the camera saw it. i.e. darker and with more contrast. Hopefully the window in the background would come out fully exposed allowing for a really atmospheric image.
Tony

 

[Dog Star]

Brian,

The photo of H A Ivatt, oh that we could have seen that loco there in 1981.

Rgds, Graham

 

[Barry37]

As ever I'm glad to have stirred some memories for you, Roger @Roger Pound . Thanks too, Martin @Martin Shaw for "furrher and better particulars.

Castle 5057 Earl Waldegrave at Old Oak Common in May 1963. Previously in post #1530 5057 was an Old Oak engine from April 1960. (SLS). The loco was withdrawn in March 1964 and was scrapped the following August at Swindon. (BR Database).

View attachment 239370

Inside Old Oak Common Shed in May 1963 is preserved A3 4472 Flying Scotsman. So much has been written about the loco and it is so well known that a further description is unnecessary.

View attachment 239371

View attachment 239372

It has to be admitted that this is a less than good example of Tim’s photos although it has plenty of atmosphere. Anyway, it’s an unidentified B1 at Kings Cross on 16th February 1961.

View attachment 239373

V2 2-6-2 60956 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. There are some interesting road and rail vehicles on the right of frame. The loco was allocated to New England in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). In December the same year it was scrapped at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).

View attachment 239374

V2 60814 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. The V2 had been a Kings Cross engine since February 1953 and moved to Grantham in June 1962 where it was withdrawn in April 1963. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed the same month. (BR Database).

View attachment 239375

From posts #1 and #4215 is A1 Class 60123, H A Ivatt here at Wood Green on 16th February 1981 with one of they there new fangled DMUs in the background. The loco was at Ardsley from September 1951, moving to Copley Hill Leeds in October 1957 and then back to Ardsley in May 1962 where it was withdrawn in the following October. (SLS). BR Database reports that it went to Doncaster Works for disposal, agreed by WHTS who advise it was photographed at Doncaster with front end damage on 29 September 1962, condemned and seen in the works yard on 14th October.

View attachment 239376

Brian

In the V2 60956 photo at Wood Green, the rail vehicle on the right, appears to be a Matisa/Neptune Track Recording Machine. According to David Larkin, these used "out-riggers" at each end of the vehicle to detect up/down or side to side defects, and sprayed a particular colour of paint on the track to indicate the type of defect. Built from 1957 to 1967 – this one would be likely either DB965167 or DB965170 of 1960.
The buffers and "drawbar" were for emergency use.

 

[AJC]

In the V2 60956 photo at Wood Green, the rail vehicle on the right, appears to be a Matisa/Neptune Track Recording Machine. According to David Larkin, these used "out-riggers" at each end of the vehicle to detect up/down or side to side defects, and sprayed a particular colour of paint on the track to indicate the type of defect. Built from 1957 to 1967 – this one would be likely either DB965167 or DB965170 of 1960.
The buffers and "drawbar" were for emergency use.

Yes, like this from @hrmspaul: Miscellaneous OTP - Neptune track recorder, unilok, robel crane | DR90007 [ex 50007 DB965414] Matisa Neptune Track Recording Trolley [PV6 628 1967] @ Bescot 1988-10-09 © Paul Bartlett w

They do appear to have been painted in quite a range of colours over the years, too and used over all regions of BR.

Adam

 

[Barry37]

Yes, like this from @hrmspaul: Miscellaneous OTP - Neptune track recorder, unilok, robel crane | DR90007 [ex 50007 DB965414] Matisa Neptune Track Recording Trolley [PV6 628 1967] @ Bescot 1988-10-09 © Paul Bartlett w

They do appear to have been painted in quite a range of colours over the years, too and used over all regions of BR.

Adam

I have a recollection of seeing either a real one, or a photo thereof, that was red and cream or white.
There were similar-shaped Matisa "consolidators" (though much less streamlined) – the pair of these I photographed at Newtown in the 1980s, were a kind of lime green.

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

V2 2-6-2 60956 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. There are some interesting road and rail vehicles on the right of frame. The loco was allocated to New England in July 1960 where it was withdrawn in September 1962. (SLS). In December the same year it was scrapped at Doncaster Works. (BR Database).

The road vehicle is certainly not a London Transport bus/coach. It looks more like a Bristol single deck half cab with a rear entrance. As to the operator and what it is doing there will be open to speculation.

On the subject of buses, Eastern National had a bus garage on Lordship Lane in Wood Green to service their route 251 from Wood Green to Southend, which also served as their coach station. This garage was used in the filming of the LWT (London Weekend Television) series 'On The Buses' from 1969 to 1973.

Not to be confused with the London Transport Wood Green garage (WN) which is an ex-trolleybus depot on High Road opposite Wood Green tube station.

It has to be admitted that this is a less than good example of Tim’s photos although it has plenty of atmosphere. Anyway, it’s an unidentified B1 at Kings Cross on 16th February 1961.

Note the illuminated London Transport Underground direction sign with a fletched arrow (contrast adjusted crop below).




As made by various commentators throughout this thread - it's the less than perfect photos which have and will continue to provide the most discussion.

 

[oldravendale]

Tony @76043 . I've done the job on the B1 photo, darkened the highlights and added more contrast.- not sure it's significantly better though... Silk purses and sows ears I think.



I some times think the same as you, Graham @Dog Star but (getting all philosophical) on the whole I think we're better off today, although the world is going to hell in a hand cart.

Barry @Barry37 and Adam @AJC - thanks for all that info about a vehicle which is really only just recognisable in the photo. There's another from the same angle below which may give the opportunity for a better interpretation although what we have here is pretty conclusive.

Your comments are really helpful too, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . I'm not surprised to see that you've searched that photo for more detail and that's a feature I'd certainly not noticed previously. Your comments about the bus are of interest too - I'd considered previously that it may be a BR staff bus.

A stranger in London! B16 4-6-0 61419 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. This loco had been allocated to York North in October 1957 and was withdrawn in September 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington Works in May 1963. (BR Database). I printed this one for Tim as a B16 in London was such a rarity.



44765 was last in post #3755. Here it's leaving Euston on a local train of compartment stock. It was a Crewe North loco and had been since at least the end of 1947. It moved to Crewe South in June 1965 and was withdrawn in September 1967. It was recorded on 26th November 1961 in Crewe Works Erecting Shop Yard. (All SLS). To complete the record as far as I’m able it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in March 1968. (BR Database).



An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T on a local train at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.



An unidentified Princess Coronation at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.



Here's one specially for Dave @Yorkshire Dave - see what delightful detail you can get out of this.



Another unidentified Princess Coronation at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.



47501 has been photographed and in these pages several times previously and most recently in post #3626. It was a long term resident of Willesden having been there since December 1957 and is here in Willesden Yard. 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 (SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[AJC]

That last image - with the Jinty and the 16 tonner shows what I think is a very early 1/108 (I'm at work so can't say closer than 1952/3) - with lettering is a very odd position: if you modelled that, and I might, people would likely think you were doing it wrong. I wish we could see the other end, I imagine that the tare weight was at the same place on the side as the number, but who knows what the stripe was like! Note that it has also had replacement plate front axleboxes which came in, I think, c.1960.

Adam

 

[Barry37]

Tony @76043 . I've done the job on the B1 photo, darkened the highlights and added more contrast.- not sure it's significantly better though... Silk purses and sows ears I think.

View attachment 239418

I some times think the same as you, Graham @Dog Star but (getting all philosophical) on the whole I think we're better off today, although the world is going to hell in a hand cart.

Barry @Barry37 and Adam @AJC - thanks for all that info about a vehicle which is really only just recognisable in the photo. There's another from the same angle below which may give the opportunity for a better interpretation although what we have here is pretty conclusive.

Your comments are really helpful too, Dave @Yorkshire Dave . I'm not surprised to see that you've searched that photo for more detail and that's a feature I'd certainly not noticed previously. Your comments about the bus are of interest too - I'd considered previously that it may be a BR staff bus.

A stranger in London! B16 4-6-0 61419 at Wood Green on 16th February 1961. This loco had been allocated to York North in October 1957 and was withdrawn in September 1961. (SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington Works in May 1963. (BR Database). I printed this one for Tim as a B16 in London was such a rarity.

View attachment 239424

44765 was last in post #3755. Here it's leaving Euston on a local train of compartment stock. It was a Crewe North loco and had been since at least the end of 1947. It moved to Crewe South in June 1965 and was withdrawn in September 1967. It was recorded on 26th November 1961 in Crewe Works Erecting Shop Yard. (All SLS). To complete the record as far as I’m able it was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge in March 1968. (BR Database).

View attachment 239425

An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T on a local train at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.

View attachment 239426

An unidentified Princess Coronation at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.

View attachment 239427

Here's one specially for Dave @Yorkshire Dave - see what delightful detail you can get out of this.

View attachment 239428

Another unidentified Princess Coronation at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.

View attachment 239429

47501 has been photographed and in these pages several times previously and most recently in post #3626. It was a long term resident of Willesden having been there since December 1957 and is here in Willesden Yard. 47501 was withdrawn from Willesden in September 1964 (SLS) and was scrapped at Cohens Kettering in February 1965. (BR Database).

View attachment 239430

Brian

In the Black Five (number ending in 24?) at North Wembley photo, the nearest wagon is an ex-LMS Sole engineers' 3-plank ballast. These were unusual in having a body shorter than the underframe, allowing the drop-down end doors to rest on the headstocks. The LMS wagons were numerous – 3000 being built between 1936 and 1947. There were virtually identical BR-built wagons, 350 in all: two lots 1949 and 1951.
The apparent "Ricketts Cockerill" private owner vehicle behind, is a sign in the "running-in" board style, in front of a van.

 

[Barry37]

That last image - with the Jinty and the 16 tonner shows what I think is a very early 1/108 (I'm at work so can't say closer than 1952/3) - with lettering is a very odd position: if you modelled that, and I might, people would likely think you were doing it wrong. I wish we could see the other end, I imagine that the tare weight was at the same place on the side as the number, but who knows what the stripe was like! Note that it has also had replacement plate front axleboxes which came in, I think, c.1960.

Adam

Lot 2255 to D1/108, built in 1950 – number appears to be B 88611 (the 6 might be a 5). As you suggest, Tare was likely in line with the number: a riveted wagon with this style of lettering is Plate 196 in History of BR Wagons Vol. 1. The latter doesn't seem to have a stripe, if there's an end door, it's the opposite end from the photographer.

 

[AJC]

Lot 2255 to D1/108, built in 1950 – number appears to be B 88611 (the 6 might be a 5). As you suggest, Tare was likely in line with the number: a riveted wagon with this style of lettering is Plate 196 in History of BR Wagons Vol. 1. The latter doesn't seem to have a stripe, if there's an end door, it's the opposite end from the photographer.

Do you happen to know who the builder was of that lot, Barry? Was the riveted one the same?

Adam

 

[John Palmer]

Lot 2255 to D1/108, built in 1950 – number appears to be B 88611 (the 6 might be a 5). As you suggest, Tare was likely in line with the number: a riveted wagon with this style of lettering is Plate 196 in History of BR Wagons Vol. 1. The latter doesn't seem to have a stripe, if there's an end door, it's the opposite end from the photographer.

A vehicle with similar insignia placement can be seen at p.74 in Vol.2 of David Larkin's 'Acquired Wagons...' series. In this case it's an LMS D2134 16T mineral numbered M620394, Derby-built in 1949 as part of Lot 1516. David's commentary calls attention to the fact that wagons to this diagram were intended to have bottom doors, and an interesting feature of the p.74 photograph is that it shows the white bars marking signifying the presence of such doors has been applied directly to the grey body colour, rather than to the black patch that seems to be more commonly (though by no means universally) found.

The photograph of 47501 clearly reveals that this was a screw reverser-fitted locomotive, and was also equipped with steam heating connections. Presumably the screw reverse acounts for its allocation for a time to Devons Road, where I believe it would have been employed on passenger duties from Broad Street. Suitability of screw reverse engines for such duties accounts for the shunting tanks built by Bagnalls for the S&D also finding their way to Devons Road; they were equipped with screw reversers in anticipation of being used as mixed traffic engines on the Dorset. 47501 was one of a batch of 50 locomotives built by Vulcan Foundry; given that the screw reverse feature was uncommon on this class, were all of the VF batch constructed with screw reverse, and, apart from the S&D contingent, did this VF order account for all the engines so fitted?

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Here's one specially for Dave @Yorkshire Dave - see what delightful detail you can get out of this.

Nothing like a thrown gauntlet... ..... and you did ask.

The train on the right leaving the station is a northbound Euston or Broad Street to Watford Junction or Croxley Green service (depending upon the time of day - here we have longish shadows) consisting of a BR 1955/56 Eastleigh built class 501 EMU.

And on the electrified lines in the preceding two photographs of North Wembley....

An unidentified Fairburn 2-6-4T on a local train at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.

Another BR 1955/56 Eastleigh built class 501 EMU on a northbound Euston or Broad Street to Watford Junction or Croxley Green service (again, depending upon the time of day). At this period when the photo was taken yellow warning panels started appearing on the lower half of the cab fronts.

An unidentified Princess Coronation at North Wembley on 25th April 1963.

A southbound Watford Junction to Elephant & Castle Bakerloo line train consisting of 1938 tube stock.

 

[Barry37]

Do you happen to know who the builder was of that lot, Barry? Was the riveted one the same?

Adam

The builder of Lot 2255 was Pressed Steel. The wagon in the BR Wagons book was built in 1946 by Tee-side S & E, registered by the LNER, but came into BR stock with a B prefix number. According to Don Rowland, these were wagons ordered by the Ministry of War Transport/Ministry of Transport, and the existing numbers merely had B added.

Barry.

 

[simond]

I love this thread….