76043
Western Thunderer
I just love the wagonery, you can keep your express locos where you wish.
Tony
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Tony
Overseer
Western Thunderer
I read the number as B 88811, not that it matters as it is still Lot 2255, built in 1950. By 1962 the original paint would have weathered substantially more than the paint in the photograph so it is likely to have been repainted. The repainting was probably carried out at a depot not used to repainting steel wagons and they didn't follow the standard for lettering repaints - a single black rectangle with both the 16T and number on it. This is one that disproves the rule - separate smaller black patches = original paint, larger black patch = repaint. The 1946 wagon would also have been repainted so could have been through the same works.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
What a lot of lovely stuff about wagonry so my thanks to Adam @AJC , Barry @Barry37 , John @John Palmer, Tony @76043 and @Overseer - I so agree with your comment, Simon @Simon D.
Then John @John Palmer again for the info about the Jinty and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - I threw down the gauntlet and my goodness didn't you just pick it up and run with it...
Black 5 45180 last seen in post #4235 here tender first on a minerals train at Willesden on 24th February 1962. It was a Bescot engine in July 1960, moved to Saltley in April 1965 and finally Crewe South in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Wards, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) in December 1965. (BR Database).
An unidentified 4F 0-6-0 on a transfer freight at Willesden on 24th February 1962.
Crab 2-6-0 42747 on a minerals train at Willesden on 24th February 1962 and seen previously in post #1735. The loco was living at Willesden at the time and had been since January 1957 but moved to Birkenhead Mollington Street at the end of March 1962. (SLS). It was withdrawn almost a year later in week ending 2nd March 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped at Horwich Works by the end of April 1963. (Rail UK).
8F 48117 on a transfer freight at Willesden on 24th February 1962. The loco was allocated to Cricklewood in July 1960 and moved to Annesley in October 1962, then Burton in September 1964, Colwick in October and Springs Branch, Wigan, in December 1966 and finally Heaton Mersey in December 1967 where it was withdrawn in March 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull (RO) in August 1968. (BR Database).
Another 8F, 48649, but this time light engine at Willesden on 24th February 1962. In October 1947 it was on loan to Rugby, I assume from Willesden as it’s shown as ex loan at Willesden from January 1948 and withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington Works (RO) in May 1965. (BR Database).
An unidentified Jinty on a transfer freight at Willesden on 24th February 1962.
Brian
Then John @John Palmer again for the info about the Jinty and Dave @Yorkshire Dave - I threw down the gauntlet and my goodness didn't you just pick it up and run with it...
Black 5 45180 last seen in post #4235 here tender first on a minerals train at Willesden on 24th February 1962. It was a Bescot engine in July 1960, moved to Saltley in April 1965 and finally Crewe South in July 1965 where it was withdrawn in the following September. (SLS). It was scrapped at Wards, Beighton, Sheffield (RO) in December 1965. (BR Database).
An unidentified 4F 0-6-0 on a transfer freight at Willesden on 24th February 1962.
Crab 2-6-0 42747 on a minerals train at Willesden on 24th February 1962 and seen previously in post #1735. The loco was living at Willesden at the time and had been since January 1957 but moved to Birkenhead Mollington Street at the end of March 1962. (SLS). It was withdrawn almost a year later in week ending 2nd March 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped at Horwich Works by the end of April 1963. (Rail UK).
8F 48117 on a transfer freight at Willesden on 24th February 1962. The loco was allocated to Cricklewood in July 1960 and moved to Annesley in October 1962, then Burton in September 1964, Colwick in October and Springs Branch, Wigan, in December 1966 and finally Heaton Mersey in December 1967 where it was withdrawn in March 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull (RO) in August 1968. (BR Database).
Another 8F, 48649, but this time light engine at Willesden on 24th February 1962. In October 1947 it was on loan to Rugby, I assume from Willesden as it’s shown as ex loan at Willesden from January 1948 and withdrawn in February 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Darlington Works (RO) in May 1965. (BR Database).
An unidentified Jinty on a transfer freight at Willesden on 24th February 1962.
Brian
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AJC
Western Thunderer
From a wagonry perspective (I do have others, I promise), the shot of 45180 - working tender first, which is nice - has interest in the sheeted 16 tonners. Not unknown, but relatively rare, partly because most of the wagons had nothing to tie the sheets to. This was for some specific traffic, but what?
The Crab is just hauling open highs: two newish LNER pattern steels and an unfitted, and increasingly unpainted, wooden predecessor from the same company. Probably not minerals, but that's not certain.
The train behind the Jinty also shows the variety you might get - open high (obscured by steam), what must be an ex-LMS dia. 1666; an LNER van with corrugated ends and Morton brakes; an LNER steel high; two ex-GWR planked vans, an LMS unfitted van and a plywood LNER van with LNE-pattern 8 shoe brake gear.
Adam
The Crab is just hauling open highs: two newish LNER pattern steels and an unfitted, and increasingly unpainted, wooden predecessor from the same company. Probably not minerals, but that's not certain.
The train behind the Jinty also shows the variety you might get - open high (obscured by steam), what must be an ex-LMS dia. 1666; an LNER van with corrugated ends and Morton brakes; an LNER steel high; two ex-GWR planked vans, an LMS unfitted van and a plywood LNER van with LNE-pattern 8 shoe brake gear.
Adam
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Barry37
Western Thunderer
You're right about about the number – enlarged and sharpened, it is pretty likely B 88811.
robertm
Western Thunderer
Love the image of 42747, Crabs always gave me the impression of a blunt instrument . I never saw one in my spotting days, being rather late on the scene just as the diseasals were taking over.
Nice to see a couple of lads in the picture seemingly tolerated by the working staff. I cant imagine that happening these days.
Bob
Nice to see a couple of lads in the picture seemingly tolerated by the working staff. I cant imagine that happening these days.
Bob
John Palmer
Western Thunderer
The presence of three lamps on the tender irons of 45180 prompts the thought that this photograph may show a shunting operation rather than the conventional passage of a train. However, my attention is more focused on the signalling apparatus on the extreme right of shot, a closer view of which seems also to be found in the photograph showing 48117. The apparatus seems to include multiple weighted levers, with one wire connection coming from the left in the shot showing 48117 and two from the right. At least one of the weights seems to have the elliptical shape which I think is representative of ex-LNW kit. My guess is that the apparatus is a slotting device for some nearby but out-of-shot ground signal, but others may be able to offer a more accurate and better informed assessment than I can.
Eastsidepilot
Western Thunderer
If my motor bike was out of action I would sometimes catch this bus from Rayleigh to Southend instead of the train to go to the tech college on day release, I believe the 251 route went all the way to Shoeburyness ? My main memory was the smell of diesel fumes !....oh! and the clippie's
Col.
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Arun
There are official photos of the electrification. I have posted just a few but I suspect the Derby negatives are all available at the NRM, although I haven't looked.
Some examples
Overhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | Erecting OHLE DW99911
Paul Bartlett's Photographs
PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
Overhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | Final inspection DM39526
Paul Bartlett's Photographs
PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
Overhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | Headstone Lane DM395718
Paul Bartlett's Photographs
PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
Overhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | OHLE Auger borer
Paul Bartlett's Photographs
PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
Overhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | OHLE foundation prep
Paul Bartlett's Photographs
PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
And plenty of photos of converted rolling stock which date back to that period.
Paul
LMS Sole Ballast wagons ZAO ZCO
In 1936 the LMS introduced a 3 plank ballast wagon with drop sides and ends. They built 3160 and BR built a further 350 (see BR Sole collection). Despite most being unfitted they lasted into the early 80s.
paulbartlett.zenfolio.com
BR Sole Ballast wagons ZCO ZCA
In 1936 the LMS introduced a 3 plank ballast wagon with drop sides and ends. They built 3160 (see LMS Sole collection) and BR built a further 350. Despite most being unfitted they lasted into the early 80s, a few were air braked and some were rebuilt. NOTE – These photographs are low quality...
paulbartlett.zenfolio.com
Paul
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
Thank you Paul - I should have known you had photographed them.Arun
There are official photos of the electrification. I have posted just a few but I suspect the Derby negatives are all available at the NRM, although I haven't looked.
Some examples
Overhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | Erecting OHLE DW99911
Paul Bartlett's PhotographsPaulBartlett.zenfolio.comOverhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | Final inspection DM39526
Paul Bartlett's PhotographsPaulBartlett.zenfolio.comOverhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | Headstone Lane DM395718
Paul Bartlett's PhotographsPaulBartlett.zenfolio.comOverhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | OHLE Auger borer
Paul Bartlett's PhotographsPaulBartlett.zenfolio.comOverhead line maintenance & S&T cable wagons and coaches etc. | OHLE foundation prep
Paul Bartlett's PhotographsPaulBartlett.zenfolio.com
And plenty of photos of converted rolling stock which date back to that period.
Paul
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you again, Adam @AJC for more wagonry detail, and Barry @Barry37 . Also Paul @hrmspaul for further vehicle references.
Bob @robertm - nicely observed comments about the Crab photo.
Then John @John Palmer for info about that Black 5 hauled train - you may well be correct about the loco being involved in a shunting manoeuvre - it's in the right place! Also well observed comments about the signalling. Regrettably I think this is the only photo taken at exactly that spot so further research will be a bit difficult.
Thanks, Col @Eastsidepilot , for enlarging the info provided by Dave @Yorkshire Dave about the buses.
8F 48313 was a Cricklewood engine from May 1959 so being seen here at Willesden on 24th February 1962 is probably on a transfer freight to the Midland main line. It moved to Toton in November 1962, Derby in July 1964 and was loaned to Colwick on 3rd January 1966 being allocated there a week later and finally moving to Bolton in January 1967 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in August 1968. (BR Database).
A Class W 2-6-4T, No 31923, on a transfer freight crossing the canal at Willesden on 24th February 1962. This was a Feltham engine where it had been allocated since January 1961 being withdrawn in February 1963. (SLS). It was recorded with a number of other withdrawn engines at Eastleigh Shed on 11th September 1963 (SLS) where it was scrapped week ending 28th September the same year. (RO).
A3 60062 Minoru light engine at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. We've seen it previously at Kings Cross in February 1961 and Holloway Road in May 1963 and also in posts #1999 and #4794. It was a Kings Cross engine from October 1953 and went to New England in October 1961, Grantham in June and Doncaster in October before returning to New England in November 1963 from where it was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). The trough deflectors were fitted 5th June 1961. (SLS). It then went to King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).
A3 60065 Knight of Thistle at Harringay West on a chilly 27th February 1962. This loco has appeared in this thread many times, for example posts #1429, #1566, #1763 and #3521. It was fitted with German style deflectors which it had carried since November 1961. It became a New England engine from June 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964 going to A Kings and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped in August the same year. (SLS & RailUK).
61XX 2-6-2T 6167 with an 81B Slough shed plate light engine at Paddington in September 1958. The loco had been allocated to Slough since at least 1947 (BR Database) and moved to Southall in May 1964 where it went in to store in September 1965 and was withdrawn a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped in December 1965 (BR Database) at Bird’s, Risca. (WHTS).
Brian
Bob @robertm - nicely observed comments about the Crab photo.
Then John @John Palmer for info about that Black 5 hauled train - you may well be correct about the loco being involved in a shunting manoeuvre - it's in the right place! Also well observed comments about the signalling. Regrettably I think this is the only photo taken at exactly that spot so further research will be a bit difficult.
Thanks, Col @Eastsidepilot , for enlarging the info provided by Dave @Yorkshire Dave about the buses.
8F 48313 was a Cricklewood engine from May 1959 so being seen here at Willesden on 24th February 1962 is probably on a transfer freight to the Midland main line. It moved to Toton in November 1962, Derby in July 1964 and was loaned to Colwick on 3rd January 1966 being allocated there a week later and finally moving to Bolton in January 1967 where it was withdrawn in September the same year. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Newport in August 1968. (BR Database).
A Class W 2-6-4T, No 31923, on a transfer freight crossing the canal at Willesden on 24th February 1962. This was a Feltham engine where it had been allocated since January 1961 being withdrawn in February 1963. (SLS). It was recorded with a number of other withdrawn engines at Eastleigh Shed on 11th September 1963 (SLS) where it was scrapped week ending 28th September the same year. (RO).
A3 60062 Minoru light engine at Harringay West on 27th February 1962. We've seen it previously at Kings Cross in February 1961 and Holloway Road in May 1963 and also in posts #1999 and #4794. It was a Kings Cross engine from October 1953 and went to New England in October 1961, Grantham in June and Doncaster in October before returning to New England in November 1963 from where it was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). The trough deflectors were fitted 5th June 1961. (SLS). It then went to King & Sons at Norwich where it was scrapped by the end of February 1965. (Rail UK).
A3 60065 Knight of Thistle at Harringay West on a chilly 27th February 1962. This loco has appeared in this thread many times, for example posts #1429, #1566, #1763 and #3521. It was fitted with German style deflectors which it had carried since November 1961. It became a New England engine from June 1962 from where it was withdrawn in June 1964 going to A Kings and Sons of Norwich where it was scrapped in August the same year. (SLS & RailUK).
61XX 2-6-2T 6167 with an 81B Slough shed plate light engine at Paddington in September 1958. The loco had been allocated to Slough since at least 1947 (BR Database) and moved to Southall in May 1964 where it went in to store in September 1965 and was withdrawn a month later. (SLS). It was scrapped in December 1965 (BR Database) at Bird’s, Risca. (WHTS).
Brian
The John Bull sign survives to this day:—
ghostsigns.co.uk
There's a Brymay Safety Matches ad lurking underneath.
Quernmore Road Signs & Ghostsigns Cluster | Ghostsigns
Cluster of signs/ghostsigns, Quernmore Road, Haringey, including Brymay, John Bull, Stevens & Steeds, L.A. Gower, and a replacement ampersand.
ghostsigns.co.uk
There's a Brymay Safety Matches ad lurking underneath.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Well found, Pete @Pete S!
An unidentified A3 making its way to be turned, coaled and watered for a return journey out of Kings Cross in September 1958. Note the train spotters on the platform end where I was often found to be lurking after about 1959 - well up to about 1963 that is!.
A1 60114 W R Allen about to exit the servicing area at Kings Cross with an unidentified V2 about to enter for turning and coaling in September 1958. The A1 was a Doncaster engine from October 1957 and was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in February 1963. (BR Database).
Class V2 2-6-2 60901 with an unidentified A3 at the Kings Cross servicing depot in September 1958. The V2 was a Heaton engine from June 1956, then Darlington in July and Thornaby in September 1960, West Hartlepool in July 1963 and Gateshead in December 1964, being withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ellis Metals, Derwenthaugh Road, Swalwell at some time in the following month. (BR Database).
A cracker of a shot, and one I printed for Tim. It’s a Crosti 9F 2-10-0 in proper Crosti guise and here at Cricklewood in September 1958. At the time it was a Wellingborough engine where it had been allocated since new in March 1955. (BR Database). According to further SLS information on 30th June 1962 conversion of the ten former Franco-Crosti boilered 9Fs was completed at Crewe Works with 92022 being dealt with in June 1962. Quite what happened to it between then and August 1963 when it moved to Rowsley is not explained so did it go back to Wellingborough? However, after Rowsley it went to Kettering in May and Newton Heath in July 1964, Speke Junction in February 1966 then Birkenhead Mollington Street in March 1967. Withdrawal followed in November 1967 although the SLS suggest this was from Speke Junction. (All info from SLS). The loco was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie in April 1968. (BR Database).
An unidentified Black 5 believed to be at Cricklewood in September 1958.
This train was seen from a different perspective in post #3572. It’s V2 60821 at Harringay West, "John Bull" prominent on he side of the adjacent building as previously referred to by Pete S. This is a short down fitted freight on 25th August 1962. The had been New England based since December 1958 where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in May 1963. (BR Database).
Brian
An unidentified A3 making its way to be turned, coaled and watered for a return journey out of Kings Cross in September 1958. Note the train spotters on the platform end where I was often found to be lurking after about 1959 - well up to about 1963 that is!.
A1 60114 W R Allen about to exit the servicing area at Kings Cross with an unidentified V2 about to enter for turning and coaling in September 1958. The A1 was a Doncaster engine from October 1957 and was withdrawn in December 1964. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in February 1963. (BR Database).
Class V2 2-6-2 60901 with an unidentified A3 at the Kings Cross servicing depot in September 1958. The V2 was a Heaton engine from June 1956, then Darlington in July and Thornaby in September 1960, West Hartlepool in July 1963 and Gateshead in December 1964, being withdrawn in June 1965. (SLS). It was scrapped at Ellis Metals, Derwenthaugh Road, Swalwell at some time in the following month. (BR Database).
A cracker of a shot, and one I printed for Tim. It’s a Crosti 9F 2-10-0 in proper Crosti guise and here at Cricklewood in September 1958. At the time it was a Wellingborough engine where it had been allocated since new in March 1955. (BR Database). According to further SLS information on 30th June 1962 conversion of the ten former Franco-Crosti boilered 9Fs was completed at Crewe Works with 92022 being dealt with in June 1962. Quite what happened to it between then and August 1963 when it moved to Rowsley is not explained so did it go back to Wellingborough? However, after Rowsley it went to Kettering in May and Newton Heath in July 1964, Speke Junction in February 1966 then Birkenhead Mollington Street in March 1967. Withdrawal followed in November 1967 although the SLS suggest this was from Speke Junction. (All info from SLS). The loco was scrapped at Campbells, Airdrie in April 1968. (BR Database).
An unidentified Black 5 believed to be at Cricklewood in September 1958.
This train was seen from a different perspective in post #3572. It’s V2 60821 at Harringay West, "John Bull" prominent on he side of the adjacent building as previously referred to by Pete S. This is a short down fitted freight on 25th August 1962. The had been New England based since December 1958 where it was withdrawn in December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster Works in May 1963. (BR Database).
Brian
Roger Pound
Western Thunderer
Whilst agreeing that the Crosti 2-10-0 at Cricklewood (#5034) is a very fine picture, my attention was also drawn to the splendid Midland bracket signal to the right of the loco. I know very little about the finer points of signals, but the differences in appearance and construction of units from varying railway companies always interested me. The continued existence of this example and many others of pre-grouping origin and style in this period serve as a little bit of history in their own right - perhaps an aspect to which we should give a little more attention.......?
The Stanier 8F 48318 (#5302) reminded me of a 3am start many years ago for a footplate ride from Coalville to Wellingborough and return. A once in a lifetime experience for me, never to be forgotten. Loaded coal wagons, unfitted out, ultimately destined for the Capital City, but would be taken on from Wellingborogh by another locomotive. Empty unfitted wagons returned to the Leicestershire coalfield. The 8F's were the most powerful locos used regularly at Coalville as it was found that 9F's could not enter the Shed yard and would de-rail, thus they were rarely seen after initial workings with them brought this problem to light.
Once more Brian, you have recalled happy times that I was fortunate enough to experience. Thank you.
Roger.
The Stanier 8F 48318 (#5302) reminded me of a 3am start many years ago for a footplate ride from Coalville to Wellingborough and return. A once in a lifetime experience for me, never to be forgotten. Loaded coal wagons, unfitted out, ultimately destined for the Capital City, but would be taken on from Wellingborogh by another locomotive. Empty unfitted wagons returned to the Leicestershire coalfield. The 8F's were the most powerful locos used regularly at Coalville as it was found that 9F's could not enter the Shed yard and would de-rail, thus they were rarely seen after initial workings with them brought this problem to light.
Once more Brian, you have recalled happy times that I was fortunate enough to experience. Thank you.
Roger.
timbowales
Western Thunderer
Ah, the "temporary" red flag in the ballast signifying a siding out of use
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
Brian
RCTS record for
92022 Wellingborough 5/55, Stored LMR (Wellingborough) 5/59, Wellingborough 3/62 (Crewe Works 3/4/62 - 20/6/62) , Rowsley 7/63, Kettering 4/64, Newton Heath 6/64, Speke Junction 2/66, Birkenhead 2/67, Wdn w/e 11/11/67, Sold from Speke Junc 3/68,
Cut up G.H.Campbell Airdrie 4/68.
I suspect the sold from location has been mixed up with the depot at withdrawal. Of the 10 Crosti 9Fs all were withdrawn from Birkenhead with the exceptions of 92027 Speke Junction and 92028 Saltley. Irwell confirms 92022 was stored at Speke Junc after withdrawal from Birkenhead.
RCTS record for
92022 Wellingborough 5/55, Stored LMR (Wellingborough) 5/59, Wellingborough 3/62 (Crewe Works 3/4/62 - 20/6/62) , Rowsley 7/63, Kettering 4/64, Newton Heath 6/64, Speke Junction 2/66, Birkenhead 2/67, Wdn w/e 11/11/67, Sold from Speke Junc 3/68,
Cut up G.H.Campbell Airdrie 4/68.
I suspect the sold from location has been mixed up with the depot at withdrawal. Of the 10 Crosti 9Fs all were withdrawn from Birkenhead with the exceptions of 92027 Speke Junction and 92028 Saltley. Irwell confirms 92022 was stored at Speke Junc after withdrawal from Birkenhead.
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John Palmer
Western Thunderer
The lead vehicles behind the 'Five' in img 124 TM9 Film ID 6 are examples of the relatively uncommon LMS designs of articulated twins for general service use - either TO+TO (D1966) or CO+TO (D1967). So far as I am aware, external appearance of both designs was identical, so no way of telling whether one happens to be a composite. As there were 22 pairs of Thirds and only 11 pairs of Composite + Third, the former seems the more likely pairing seen here.