timbowales
Western Thunderer
Yes, the driver's positioning of the loco is spot on!
Prototype Tim Mills' Photos
- Thread starter oldravendale
- Start date
Yorkshire Dave
Western Thunderer
An unidentified A3 believed to be at Potters Bar during a cold December 1962.
Definitely Potters Bar looking north - the J & L Randall toy factory, Merit House on Cranborne Road Industrial Estate in the background is the giveaway.
Remember the Merit model railway accessories in matchbox style boxes and other Merit toys and Games? Some of the model railway accessories are now part of the Peco range
Hmm! Not so sure. Looks like a SPAD to me…..
When we saw a suspected SPAD at Gilling 5 inch yesterday a friend suggested that as long as the driver can see the signal from the cab it is not a spad, and he is well clear of that gantry.
Paul
img164 TM Film ID 79 47435 Cricklewood Dec 62 copyright FINAL.jpg
Oh for a close up of that LMS Diag 1663 van.
It looks to be in good condition and quite possibly still in revenue service, late for an unfitted van of any type, and this is the first LMS van design to have a corrugated steel end, but note it lacks a ventilator. Essery vol 1 page 31. There were 850 of these vans (rather confusing entry in Essery, but it clear in Essery and Morgan).
Paul
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
A few bits.
My thanks to Dave for the info re West Hampstead PSB.
62762 Neville Hill 22/9/34, Starbeck 12/12/47, Scarborough 8/6/58, Wdn 13/10/60.
From Yeadon, Longworth thinks it went to Scarborough in May 58.
I would agree with Dave F that its Newton, following his prompt it is recognisable although it looks nothing at all like that now.
There were surprisingly fifteen Pickersgill 4-4-0s still in traffic in September 1961, although spread very thinly across the ScR, Wick and Helmsdale both had one, 54491 and 54495 respectively. I'm pretty certain that the number is 54465, the other 10 that started 544 were nowhere near the Glasgow area sheds.
The pic of the Clan is stunning although it is by any modern measure a SPAD, in 1961 that wouldn't have even been commented upon. The balance weights on the doll rather give away that the signal is at danger.
I hope Brian and everyone else will indulge me, 55189 is rather dear to me, here it is some 62 years later on with yours truly in charge. It rather well illustrates why we do preservation.
Photo copyright Peter Backhouse 22/10/2023.
My thanks to Dave for the info re West Hampstead PSB.
62762 Neville Hill 22/9/34, Starbeck 12/12/47, Scarborough 8/6/58, Wdn 13/10/60.
From Yeadon, Longworth thinks it went to Scarborough in May 58.
I would agree with Dave F that its Newton, following his prompt it is recognisable although it looks nothing at all like that now.
There were surprisingly fifteen Pickersgill 4-4-0s still in traffic in September 1961, although spread very thinly across the ScR, Wick and Helmsdale both had one, 54491 and 54495 respectively. I'm pretty certain that the number is 54465, the other 10 that started 544 were nowhere near the Glasgow area sheds.
The pic of the Clan is stunning although it is by any modern measure a SPAD, in 1961 that wouldn't have even been commented upon. The balance weights on the doll rather give away that the signal is at danger.
I hope Brian and everyone else will indulge me, 55189 is rather dear to me, here it is some 62 years later on with yours truly in charge. It rather well illustrates why we do preservation.
Photo copyright Peter Backhouse 22/10/2023.
Need an operator to advise. I think that if any part of the train is beyond a stop sign it is a SPAD. Usually won’t be picked up by the signalling as the section track circuit will usually (?) extend past the signal for a short way.
I worked with the man in charge of the BR steam specials post 1968. He had been a driver from Nine Elms. I asked him if he had ever had a SPAD. Three was the reply, but none detected. All due to ‘youthful experience’.
The other pearl of wisdom I got from him was the comment that ‘if a Merchant was an 8, a Duchess was a 10.’
timbowales
Western Thunderer
As a retired Signalling Engineer a SPAD would only be detected when the first track circuit beyond the signal was occupied. There was a Scottish peculiarity that caused me extreme difficulty on one alteration. Scottish Region practise was that they did not use first wheel replacement, i.e. the first track circuit being occupied puts the signal back to danger. Instead it was either the third track occupied or berth track unoccupied!
On that basis the Clan was not a SPAD
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Mike @Mike Walker - Apologies! I wrote an acknowledgement of your kind comments about Marlow and the "Donkey" which I then must have removed when cleaning up the post. However, your details are much appreciated and will be included in the documentation accompanying those photos.
Brian
Brian
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
I would argue with Tim from a pedantic point of view. A SPAD is most often highlighted by track circuit occupancy, but it doesn't have to be, theoretically simple physical observance is all that is necessary to generate a Form 1. In this respect Genghis is correct, if a train passes the line across the track presented by a signal at danger then it is a SPAD, there may well be mitigating circumstances. On that basis the Clan was most definitely a SPAD, we've all seen it.
I don't think last wheel replacement was peculiar to the ScR, any location where trains were assisted in the rear usually had this so that the driver of the trailing locomotive didn't pass a signal at danger. From my observation these days in more recent installations the insulated joint or axle counter location is often a train length in advance of a signal, thereby saving a separate overlap .
Two comments from the ORR on SPADs, the second of which is pertinent to the Clan, the difference of course being that it is nowadays much more reported.
A signal is passed at danger (SPAD) when a train passes a stop signal when not allowed to do so.
There are many SPADs each year, but most have little or no potential to cause harm because they are the result of minor misjudgements of distance or braking capability, or they occur at low speed. In most cases, the trains stop within the safety overlap provided at the signal.
I don't think last wheel replacement was peculiar to the ScR, any location where trains were assisted in the rear usually had this so that the driver of the trailing locomotive didn't pass a signal at danger. From my observation these days in more recent installations the insulated joint or axle counter location is often a train length in advance of a signal, thereby saving a separate overlap .
Two comments from the ORR on SPADs, the second of which is pertinent to the Clan, the difference of course being that it is nowadays much more reported.
A signal is passed at danger (SPAD) when a train passes a stop signal when not allowed to do so.
There are many SPADs each year, but most have little or no potential to cause harm because they are the result of minor misjudgements of distance or braking capability, or they occur at low speed. In most cases, the trains stop within the safety overlap provided at the signal.
Last edited:
And stopping within the overlap was the thinking behind TPWS. I was lucky enough to lead the team that developed the concepts for this.
Barry37
Western Thunderer
We were on a Gatwick( I think, or Redhill) to Brighton train a few years ago, when the train stopped at Three Bridges, where it wasn't meant to stop. The front coach had gone past a signal, that according to the driver, had turned from green to red**, as the train approached it, without enough braking distance to stop. His explanation on the PA was more than a tad emotional.
The delay caused by this, was lengthened by there being a passenger in a wheelchair, in the coach that wasn't at the platform. The wheelchair was too wide to push down the centre aisle, and the train apparently had to stay where it was. I assume the passenger was carried out – I think we got on another train before it was resolved.
** There were signalling "issues" in the area that day, so this was likely the cause of the unexpected aspect change.
Brian McKenzie
Western Thunderer
Hasn't 72002 Clan Campbell at Carstairs moved forward of the signal gantry in the second photo - since being stopped right up to it ??
Dan Randall
Western Thunderer
The balance weights on the driving wheels are certainly in a different place, so perhaps it’s on the move?
Regards
Dan
The signal is now off too, so yes.
Martin Shaw
Western Thunderer
There's a blow from the piston rod gland so the regulator is open, the safety valves have lifted, and the exhaust has cleared somewhat, to add to the comments.
oldravendale
Western Thunderer
Thank you Tim @timbowales , Dave @Genghis , Paul @hrmspaul , Martin @Martin Shaw , Barry @Barry37 , Brian @Brian McKenzie and Dan @Dan Randall for all the comments about the Clan photo, and whether it's a SPAD or not. Despite the differences all info to be carefully stored away.
Dave @Yorkshire Dave - I'm most grateful for your confirmation of the location and the background info.
Larry @LarryG - it's good you found the Marlow photos useful. That, after all, is what it's all about.
I've tried a blow up of that wagon, Paul @hrmspaul , but the grain becomes really intrusive and I'm not sure that it gives us much more information than the original photo.
Martin @Martin Shaw . Thank you for everything in yours. Again much detailed information for which I'm grateful, and also why not indulge yourself now and again? That's a lovely picture.
This photo made a lovely print. Regrettably we don’t know the identity of the A4 but believe it to have been at Potters Bar in December 1962. (Probably confirmed by Dave @Yorkshire Dave comments above). The top of a telegraph pole just in front of the loco chimney was painted out of the printed photo – the original is the second image and you can decide whether that was a good move or not. I’m never happy about compromising the original image but in this case I think it was justified.
V2 60902 last seen in post #2540 and here at Holloway Road in May 1963. It was a New England loco from February 1963 and then Doncaster in June where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped in Doncaster Works in November. (BR Database).
A rather nice picture of a grimy but unidentified A3 with a GNR coal rail tender light engine at Holloway Road in May 1963.
I wonder whether this may be useful as a prototype for a model – but you’ll need a bit of room to fit it in. It’s the cooling towers alongside the LNER main line at Holloway Road in May 1963.
An unidentified 94XX 0-6-0PT having already lost its smokebox numberplate probably on empty stock at Old Oak Common in May 1963.
Brian
Dave @Yorkshire Dave - I'm most grateful for your confirmation of the location and the background info.
Larry @LarryG - it's good you found the Marlow photos useful. That, after all, is what it's all about.
I've tried a blow up of that wagon, Paul @hrmspaul , but the grain becomes really intrusive and I'm not sure that it gives us much more information than the original photo.
Martin @Martin Shaw . Thank you for everything in yours. Again much detailed information for which I'm grateful, and also why not indulge yourself now and again? That's a lovely picture.
This photo made a lovely print. Regrettably we don’t know the identity of the A4 but believe it to have been at Potters Bar in December 1962. (Probably confirmed by Dave @Yorkshire Dave comments above). The top of a telegraph pole just in front of the loco chimney was painted out of the printed photo – the original is the second image and you can decide whether that was a good move or not. I’m never happy about compromising the original image but in this case I think it was justified.
V2 60902 last seen in post #2540 and here at Holloway Road in May 1963. It was a New England loco from February 1963 and then Doncaster in June where it was withdrawn in September. (SLS). It was scrapped in Doncaster Works in November. (BR Database).
A rather nice picture of a grimy but unidentified A3 with a GNR coal rail tender light engine at Holloway Road in May 1963.
I wonder whether this may be useful as a prototype for a model – but you’ll need a bit of room to fit it in. It’s the cooling towers alongside the LNER main line at Holloway Road in May 1963.
An unidentified 94XX 0-6-0PT having already lost its smokebox numberplate probably on empty stock at Old Oak Common in May 1963.
Brian
Arun Sharma
Western Thunderer
The Holloway cooling towers are very reminiscent of those that used to be at Neasden Depot [LT]