Prototype Tim Mills' Photos

[AJC]

Marvellous shot of the Cliffe-Uddingston cement (in the cemflo wagons that were at least partly built for this particular traffic flow) there. All the details one might wish for about these wagons on @hrmspaul's pages: APCM Cemflo PCV

Adam

 

[Barry37]

9F 92186 at Wood Green on a train of tank wagons in May 1963. Allocated to New England when new in January 1958 it moved to Colwick in June 1963, Doncaster in February 1965 and Langwith Junction in June the same year where it was withdrawn at the end of the following August. (SLS). It was scrapped at Draper’s, Hull in February 1966.

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Princess Coronation 46247 City of Liverpool was previously in posts #3787 and #4275 and here it’s at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. The loco had been a Camden engine since building but transferred to Carlisle Kingmoor from June 1961 (SLS). It was ultimately withdrawn from Kingmoor in May 1963 (SLS) and was scrapped by the end of July 1963 at Crewe Works. (Rail UK).

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An 8F at Bushey Water Troughs probably on an Engineers ballast train on 16th July 1960. This is 48129 displaying the star under the number indicating the wheels were balanced for higher speed working. This had been a Willesden engine since November 1948 but moved to Warrington Dallam in May 1961, then Widnes in June 1962, Speke Junction May 1964 and finally Edge Hill in March 1965 where it was withdrawn in March 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped at Cashmore’s, Great Bridge, in June the same year. (BR Database).

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Previously in post #1742 when the loco was in store at Willesden this is Princess 46205 Princess Victoria on the down Shamrock at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960 and picking up water with the tender overflowing. 46205 Princess Victoria and 46207 Princess Arthur of Connaught were in store at Willesden on 24th February 1962. 46205 was a Crewe North engine from July 1957 moving to Willesden in April 1961 and going straight in to store. It was reinstated in July 1961 and went to Camden in July or August the same year before going back to Willesden in September where it was withdrawn in the following November. It went to Crewe for disposal which was complete by the end of May 1962. (SLS and BR Database). 46205 (and 46207) were recorded by the SLS as "awaiting works" at Crewe on 8th April 1962 but that was clearly not to be.

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Brian

8F 48129 has a Shark plough brake van behind, followed by a rake of Catfish ballast hoppers. These only had centre discharge, so might be destined for a location with third-rail electric. Using the plough on the Shark could be unwise (or not very effective, as the cut-outs were meant to clear running rails, not higher 3rd rails (power would be off, obvs).

 

[hrmspaul]

img867 TM 9A Film ID22A 48129 Bushey Water troughs 16 Jul 60 copyright FINAL.jpg​

That is a very consistent train of CATFISH. I wonder if it is one of the numbered hopper trains that the LMR appears to have had. Later on quite a lot of these wagons had large lettering to such affect such as HOPPER TRAIN NO. 6 BR Catfish ZEV ballast hopper wagon | DB983859 CATFISH or No. 3 BR Catfish ZEV ballast hopper wagon | DB992536 ZEV (there are several more in the collection) but I have never seen an explanation of these brandings.

Paul

 

[hrmspaul]

Marvellous shot of the Cliffe-Uddingston cement (in the cemflo wagons that were at least partly built for this particular traffic flow) there. All the details one might wish for about these wagons on @hrmspaul's pages: APCM Cemflo PCV




Adam

Later to be hauled by pairs of Birmingham type 3 diesels (later class 33) to York, taking them well away from their usual haunts. And infamous for derailing and causing the accident that destroyed the prototype DP2.

Paul

 

[oldravendale]

So much extra and wonderful info about the cemflo wagons and Catfish ballast train. Thank you all. This really beefs the descriptions up!

Jubilee 45583 Assam previously in post #1496 and in the same location at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960. Assam belonged to Edge Hill at the time where it was allocated in September 1959, then Llandudno Junction in December 1960, Crewe North in July, Aston in September 1961 before ending up at Warrington Dallam in November 1961 from where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Central Wagon Co at Wigan where it was scrapped by the end of July 1965. (Rail UK)



Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75033 at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. By April 1960 this was a Workington engine moving to Mold Junction in July the same year. It moved to Rhyl in May, Llandudno Junction in October and Nuneaton in November 1962, then Southport in June and Bank Hall in August 1963 before going to Heaton Mersey in April, Chester in May and Croes Newydd in August 1966, then Shrewsbury in February and back to Croes Newydd in April and finally Carnforth in May where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh in June 1968. (BR Database).



Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960 with 8F 48752 on a down container and van train. At the time it was an Aston loco where it was allocated in November 1958. It moved to Bescot in November 1964, Oxley April 1966, Springs Branch Wigan February and Edge Hill December 1967, then Rose Grove in May 1968 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped in February 1969 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield where it was observed on 14th January 1969. (WHTS).



On 8th February 1963 at Potters Bar 9F 92145 enters light engine and then picks up a freight from the yard. (And is that another Ferrywagon behind the loco?) 92145 was allocated to New England when new at the end of August 1957 (BR Database) and stayed there until moved to Langwith Junction in January, Colwick in November and Immingham in December 1965 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).

Edit. Now confirmed from Tim's original notes to be Hornsey on 27th December 1962.







Brian

 

[Roger Pound]

Later to be hauled by pairs of Birmingham type 3 diesels (later class 33) to York, taking them well away from their usual haunts. And infamous for derailing and causing the accident that destroyed the prototype DP2.

Paul

I have a memory of seeing this working travelling north with a pair of 33's along the ECML near Retford, perhaps some sixty years or so back. It sticks in the mind as it was the first time I had seen any of the Class 33's, although I remember the regular workings of the similar looking Class 26's in the Leicestershire area.

Roger.

 

[simond]

So much extra and wonderful info about the cemflo wagons and Catfish ballast train. Thank you all. This really beefs the descriptions up!

Jubilee 45583 Assam previously in post #1496 and in the same location at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960. Assam belonged to Edge Hill at the time where it was allocated in September 1959, then Llandudno Junction in December 1960, Crewe North in July, Aston in September 1961 before ending up at Warrington Dallam in November 1961 from where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Central Wagon Co at Wigan where it was scrapped by the end of July 1965. (Rail UK)

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Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75033 at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. By April 1960 this was a Workington engine moving to Mold Junction in July the same year. It moved to Rhyl in May, Llandudno Junction in October and Nuneaton in November 1962, then Southport in June and Bank Hall in August 1963 before going to Heaton Mersey in April, Chester in May and Croes Newydd in August 1966, then Shrewsbury in February and back to Croes Newydd in April and finally Carnforth in May where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh in June 1968. (BR Database).

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Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960 with 8F 48752 on a down container and van train. At the time it was an Aston loco where it was allocated in November 1958. It moved to Bescot in November 1964, Oxley April 1966, Springs Branch Wigan February and Edge Hill December 1967, then Rose Grove in May 1968 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped in February 1969 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield where it was observed on 14th January 1969. (WHTS).

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On 8th February 1963 at Potters Bar 9F 92145 enters light engine and then picks up a freight from the yard. (And is that another Ferrywagon behind the loco?) 92145 was allocated to New England when new at the end of August 1957 (BR Database) and stayed there until moved to Langwith Junction in January, Colwick in November and Immingham in December 1965 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).

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Brian

by 'eck, it looks b.... cold

 

[Genghis]

by 'eck, it looks b.... cold

It was! Stayed at my grandparents overnight Christmas Day. Woke up on Boxing Day morning to heavy snow. Lasted until mid March IIRC. Come home from school to find that the milk had frozen with the foil caps sitting on top of a frozen cream lolly sticking up from the bottle.

I believe that many steam locos were reprieved as the diesels suffered from fuel waxing.

 

[simond]

I was just rising five. Short trousers were, shall we say, invigorating...

The snow on the golf course was deeper than my waist, so maybe 18" - 2 feet?

 

[AJC]

Yes, another French (I'm pretty sure), ferry van. Looks perishing.

Adam

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

Yes, another French (I'm pretty sure), ferry van. Looks perishing.

Definately a French ferry wagon couvert, the doors are the give away. DB gedeckter Fährbootwagen had sliding doors.

There's one preserved at the NRM https://collection.sciencemuseumgro...et-a-la-mediterranee-plm-train-ferry-van-1935

 

[Yorkshire Dave]

On 8th February 1963 at Potters Bar 9F 92145 enters light engine and then picks up a freight from the yard. (And is that another Ferrywagon behind the loco?) 92145 was allocated to New England when new at the end of August 1957 (BR Database) and stayed there until moved to Langwith Junction in January, Colwick in November and Immingham in December 1965 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).

Not sure about it being Potters Bar, there's no large yard there and the main line is relatively straight.

I think the photo is taken from the south end of Hornsey station platform looking south towards the down Ferme Park Sidings. You can see the end of the platform in the last shot.

Here's an annotated NLS OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-74 series extract. Red = Hornsey station, Green = Ferme Park down yard, Blue = hill in background covered in snow.

 

[PMP]

So much extra and wonderful info about the cemflo wagons and Catfish ballast train. Thank you all. This really beefs the descriptions up!

Jubilee 45583 Assam previously in post #1496 and in the same location at Bushey Troughs on 16th July 1960. Assam belonged to Edge Hill at the time where it was allocated in September 1959, then Llandudno Junction in December 1960, Crewe North in July, Aston in September 1961 before ending up at Warrington Dallam in November 1961 from where it was withdrawn in October 1964. (SLS). It went to Central Wagon Co at Wigan where it was scrapped by the end of July 1965. (Rail UK)

View attachment 250441

Standard Class 4 4-6-0 75033 at Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960. By April 1960 this was a Workington engine moving to Mold Junction in July the same year. It moved to Rhyl in May, Llandudno Junction in October and Nuneaton in November 1962, then Southport in June and Bank Hall in August 1963 before going to Heaton Mersey in April, Chester in May and Croes Newydd in August 1966, then Shrewsbury in February and back to Croes Newydd in April and finally Carnforth in May where it was withdrawn in December 1967. (SLS). It was scrapped at T W Ward, Killamarsh in June 1968. (BR Database).

View attachment 250435

Bushey Water Troughs on 16th July 1960 with 8F 48752 on a down container and van train. At the time it was an Aston loco where it was allocated in November 1958. It moved to Bescot in November 1964, Oxley April 1966, Springs Branch Wigan February and Edge Hill December 1967, then Rose Grove in May 1968 where it was withdrawn at the end of steam in August 1968. (SLS). It was scrapped in February 1969 (BR Database) at Ward’s, Beighton, Sheffield where it was observed on 14th January 1969. (WHTS).



On 8th February 1963 at Potters Bar 9F 92145 enters light engine and then picks up a freight from the yard. (And is that another Ferrywagon behind the loco?) 92145 was allocated to New England when new at the end of August 1957 (BR Database) and stayed there until moved to Langwith Junction in January, Colwick in November and Immingham in December 1965 where it was withdrawn in February 1966. (SLS). It was scrapped in April 1966 at T W Ward, Beighton. (BR Database).

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Brian

I'm intrigued by these being listed as Potters Bar, as I don't recognise it. In the first image I can't place the climbing rows of terraced housing behind the loco tender, and the lateral spread of the yard doesn't look right either. Ive always associated the alignment there as very narrow and linear rather than curved as shown in the second.

 

[PMP]

Not sure about it being Potters Bar, there's no large yard there and the main line is relatively straight.

I think the photo is taken from the south end of Hornsey station platform looking south itowards the down Ferme Park Sidings. You can see the end of the platform in the last shot.

Here's an annotated NLS OS 1:1,250/1:2,500 1944-74 series extract. Red = Hornsey station, Green = Ferme Park down yard, Blue = hill in background covered in snow.

View attachment 250469

I think this is correct. The rows of terraced houses at the bottom LHS of the map climb up from the yard and curvature of the main lines look right

 

[oldravendale]

Yes, that winter in '63 was bloomin' cold! You'll see one particular memory attached to the next photo.

Thanks Adam @AJC and Dave @Yorkshire Dave for the info about the ferry wagon which we've now established is French.

Then we come to the hawk eyes who once again, and correctly, query the given location. Actually Hornsey is very likely anyway as that's where Tim lived at the time. Perhaps he didn't want to stray too far from home in that weather. So tanks for icking that up, Dave @Yorkshire Dave and @PMP for the confirmation.

With reference to the questioning of the location I suspect Tim had a moment or two of transposing those details in his notes which may explain some of the following:

Suggested to be Potters Bar Station on a cold and wintery 8th February 1963 we now understand this to be Hornsey. It's an unidentified freight train passing. As I remember that was a horrible winter to be delivering newspapers! My dear departed dad came out to help me one morning when the snow was too deep for me to take my bike.

Edit. Now confirmed from Tim's original notes to be Hornsey on 27th December 1962.



The interior of an unidentified signal box on 8th February 1963 but the position in the film strip confirms the location (Previously noted as Potters Bar to actually be Hornsey. Tim, together with a group from S & T at Loughborough were contracted to demolish this box so it could be taken north for the putative GCR. As it was local to Tim it had some special meaning. Regrettably it was way before its time as far as the GCR were concerned which was fighting for survival. It was stored under the Empress Road Bridge for a while but eventually became forgotten about. We believe the wooden components were used to light up the locos for a bit and the metal components were scrapped during a period of clearing up all the detritus left around the site. Very sad.

Edit. Now confirmed from Tim's original notes to be Hornsey on 27th December 1962 and thanks to additional info from Martin Shaw this is now further identified as Hornsey No 1 box.



Previously in post #3036 this is the 1.15 Leeds train at Hornsey on 8th February 1963 so Tim got the location correct on this one!. 60003 Andrew K McCosh had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn on 29th December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).

Edit. Now confirmed from Tim's original notes to be Hornsey on 27th December 1962. This must, therefore, sadly be one of it's very last revenue earning trains. Although looking scruffy on the outside the loco appears to be really steam tight so one wonders what caused withdrawal although it's known that even a minor defect would be reason enough for any steam loco to be withdrawn at this time.



A4 60017 Silver Fox which was previously in post #4223 at Potters Bar - and I actually believe this is indeed Potters Bar - on 22nd December 1962. At the time of the photo it was a resident of Kings Cross where it had lived since new in December 1935, moving to New England in June 1963 and being withdrawn in October. (SLS). It went to Doncaster Works for disposal which was completed by the year end. (BR Database).



Brian

 

[Dog Star]

Previously in post #3036 this is the 1.15 Leeds train at Hornsey on 8th February 1963 so Tim got the location correct on this one!. 60003 had been a Kings Cross engine since 1957 and was withdrawn at the end of December 1962. (SLS). It was scrapped at Doncaster in January 1963. (BR Database).

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Brian,

Photo date after the date of scrapping.

Rgds, Graham

 

[Martin Shaw]

I wonder if the loco in #877 is in fact 60008 Dwight D.Eisenhower, a Kings X engine at the time of the photo and subsequently withdrawn in July 63.

Martin

 

[AndyB]

Excuse my ignorance, but can someone tell me what the loop things are on the lever frame?
Some kind of lock to prevent the lever from being pulled?
I've never come across them before.


Thank you
Andy

 

[oldravendale]

Thank you Graham @Dog Star - you're absolutely right and have stirred up something of a barrel of worms . I'm interrupting things here just to say that I've now reviewed Tim's notes and the date I've attributed to some of these recent photos is incorrect. I'll be revisiting them to correct appropriately. Additionally the location of the photos in film 81 is identified as Hornsey! It's largely down to me although some of Tim's notes are in what some may regard as a "creative" order. I'd not found the notes for film 81 so was making things up to a degree from what I know of films 80 and 82. Now I've found at least some of the details for film 81 hidden after film 21 and before film 55. (Film 79/80 are followed by Film 30!)

Regrettably I never got to discuss with Tim how he made his notes up. It's not as though they are in any sort of loose leaf format which could understandably become a bit jumbled. These are all in a hard back notebook. I think there's only one way through this morass which is to enter the notes page by page in a database which will sort them in to film order - but I'll not be doing that for a while.

Ho hum!

 

[Martin Shaw]

I have identified the signal box interior in #876 as Hornsey No 1 which controlled the down lines and was located at the London end of the down platform. It dates from 1888 and was a GNR type 2 box, timber built with no ornamentation, and may have been supplied by McKenzie & Holland. The lever frame is a most likely a GN Duplex frame that was probably installed at some later date. The diagram to hand dated 1970 shows levers 8 & 14 working det placers on the down slow 1 & 2 respectively whereas the phtotgraph distinctly shows that they are spare. It closed in Dec 1974.

Andy
The loop handles are wire adjusters and note that they are adjacent to levers 7 and 12, the distant for Down Slow No 1 and inner distant for Down Slow No 2. The adjuster for lever No 2, the Down Fast distant is the worm wheel contraption on the front wall of the box visible in the gap where levers 5/6/7 are reversed.

Martin